Switching Weight Classes and Win/Loss Record

[aacoach117]

With so many wrestlers switching weight classes right now, I am just curious how people feel about a wrestler that switches weight classes and his record from the previous weight class being used to seed him? I have seen this a few times, and for me personally, I do not like it. If the wrestler moved out of a tougher weight class then his record could hurt him in future seedings and if he moved from a weaker weight class then it could give him an unfair advantage.

Thoughts?

[vortexfan]

I think there should be so many weigh ins at the desired weight class to qualify to wrestle in another weight class.

I thought rules were already established from a wrestler moving down in weight classes.

[aaacoach89]

I thought that a wrestler had to have half of their weigh ins at the lower weight class in order to compete at Regionals for that weight. I may be incorrect.

[J.W.]

Half of the weigh-ins from the date his glide path says he can make lowest weight is the rule. So if you can't make lowest weight until 1 February, and you have two meets scheduled before regionals, one of the weigh ins would have to be at the lowest weight.

[aaacoach89]

Half of the weigh-ins from the date his glide path says he can make lowest weight is the rule. So if you can't make lowest weight until 1 February, and you have two meets scheduled before regionals, one of the weigh ins would have to be at the lowest weight.

Cool, thanks for clarifying that for me.

[Zacsdad]

From page 7 of the WVSSAC 2016-2017 High School Wrestling Coaches Packet:

Minimum Wrestling Weight
After being assessed for his minimum wrestling weight, the first time he/she wrestles at his/her minimum
wrestling weight he/she must make base weight. He or she may not weigh-in at his or her minimum
weight until the date indicated by the Alpha Report. Once a wrestler weighs in at his/her minimum wrestling
weight, he/she MUST then weigh-in at his/her minimum wrestling weight 50% of his remaining
competitions.

[RWWS]

What it doesn't explain his that a wrestler can move up. 50% rule is for lowest weight allowed based on weight certification

[aacoach75]

Don't think it matters moving up a class.

[aaacoach95]

The rule reads that the wrestler must weigh in 50% of the remaining competitions at the lower weight once they make that weight. It has nothing to do with the date they are medically eligible to make the weight, only when the actually make it. Technically, a wrestler who weighed in at 170 all year could drop to 160 for the regionals, provided their calibration allowed them to make that weight. They would still have to weigh in at the base weight the first time though.

[coach_williams]

The rule reads that the wrestler must weigh in 50% of the remaining competitions at the lower weight once they make that weight. It has nothing to do with the date they are medically eligible to make the weight, only when the actually make it. Technically, a wrestler who weighed in at 170 all year could drop to 160 for the regionals, provided their calibration allowed them to make that weight. They would still have to weigh in at the base weight the first time though.

I am not sure that is entirely correct since regionals and states do not count against the allowed number of weigh ins. Rule §127-3-31.4 states "A wrestling team will be permitted to have 18 matches exclusive of regional and state tournaments." So when the rule quoted by Zacsdad says "he/she MUST then weigh-in at his/her minimum wrestling weight 50% of his remaining competitions" I think it is referring to regular season competitions, not regionals.

[Matofficial]

Coach Williams, aaa coach 95 is correct unless they have changed the rules on the subject. As long as the wrestler makes base and all other eligibility rules are met. A wrestlers first weigh in could be the regional. If memory serve me correct I remember a wrestler ending his season on the top podium with a 7-0 record out of region 1 a few years ago.

[Gator]

Coach Williams, aaa coach 95 is correct unless they have changed the rules on the subject. As long as the wrestler makes base and all other eligibility rules are met. A wrestlers first weigh in could be the regional. If memory serve me correct I remember a wrestler ending his season on the top podium with a 7-0 record out of region 1 a few years ago.

Matofficial, I remember that happening out of region 1 in 1977. That wrestler, Rick Walters of Parkersburg High, I believe had a broken arm during the regular season and came back and ran the table at regionals and states.

[coach999]

I figured out the answer. Hart and Adams have to be in the same weight class, and they have to still go by the rule, only one wrestler per team at the regions. Problem is, the winner of that wrestle off, will have byes all the way to the podium in Huntington. lol.

Assuming this rule will never pass, lol, and to get back to the original question, because I have mixed feelings and would like to hear others thoughts.

Here is the situation. This year, AA has a bunch of real good wrestlers that have potential to win a state title, and most of them are Seniors. They all want a chance to accomplish the dream of winning a state title. Exciting thing is, this bunch, is all around the same weight, which makes it exciting to see who prevails between them to stand on the podium. Just like most years, at the beginning of year, wrestlers check out the field and get into a class that's best for them. So when a good wrestler that is a senior learns they have a wrestler like a Hart or Adams in their weight class, then the dream becomes unrealistic to them. Therefore those seniors often move to another weight class so they can keep their dream still alive and realistic. We see this all the time. Probably every year. Usually its not a problem for them to move at this point or plan to move, because a plan is put in place for the Senior to move classes when he becomes eligible, and this allows the bumped wrestler to put a plan together as well. I don't see a problem with this happening because the bumped wrestler has plenty of time to put their own plan together to drop or go up. Actually, as a fan, I love it when a dominate wrestler, like a Hart and Adams, is around the same weight as a group of other real good wrestlers. I love it because those real good wrestlers avoid the dominate wrestlers, and as a result, we have a bunch of real good wrestlers in the same weight class. Awesome for fans to see this great competition. Example of this was at the WSAZs this year. The 182 class had wrestlers that were typically seeded 1 or 2, actually seeded 6,7,8, or 9. Now that's exciting to watch play out. So the moving that was done prior to or up until this point is not a problem for teams or wrestlers. Nor is it unfair to the bumped wrestler. If anything, its unfair to the dominant wrestler because I'm sure he wants to have more competitive matches during his year, and with wrestlers moving outside a dominant wrestlers class, they usually have to wait until after the season to go to nationals or travel out of state to big national tournaments. Having said that, the problem this year is more complicated. This year, the seniors or good wrestlers are moving TWICE to keep their title chances and dreams alive. They are moving again for the same reason, to avoid the same guy or dominate wrestler, and this was not apart of the plan for these real good wrestlers. lol. This is a problem because when those good wrestlers move again, or move back to original weight, at this point in the season, often the bumped wrestler doesn't have any options to put a plan together to move again. They cant go down, because they will not have enough weigh ins, or simply do not have time to lose the two lbs per week to make weight. Some just cant lose enough in a short time. If they go up a class, then they may not be able to win against their bigger teammate. Either way, this wrestler is SOL. So the question is, is this fair to the bumped wrestler? On the other hand, some coaches wont let the senior or good wrestler bump back to original class, because they have a wrestler that has worked hard all year and been at that weight all year, and they are not going to force them the move again. So now the senior with the best chance to bring home a title is SOL, or they decide to go up two weight classes or stop eating because they want to have the chance to be competitive again or should I say, keep their dream of winning a title alive. This is a hard decision for coaches because if they don't let the good wrestler move again, the school also loses a chance to have a state champion wrestler. What makes this a bigger problem, is again the fact we have so many seniors that are real good wrestlers that are seeking that title, but only have just a few weight classes to wrestle in, and even fewer, if you take away the class with the dominate wrestler. So what's the answer or fair thing to do?

A few things to take into consideration:
- I don't think these wrestlers are scared of competition, I just think that want a chance to compete for a title. Facing someone like a Hart or Adams for most, is not much of a chance.
-I don't think any rules should be put in place to prevent this from happening again because this situation does not happen often, therefore I don't think we will see so many moves being made this late in year very often.
-Should the age and quality of the bumped wrestler be taken into consideration? Such as a senior moving twice, that forces a freshman to be bumped or forced to move up and wrestle heavier opponents. My opinion is yes, because if the bumped wrestler is only a 9th grader, with little chance to place in Huntington, then a team needs to do what's best for the wrestler and school. If the bumped wrestler was another senior, that's goal is to make it to states or make the podium, then he deserves that chance. Although some disagree and I will say, I see this point too.

Lastly, this topic made me think about 2 years ago, when we had 3 dominate type of wrestlers all in the same class. Allen, Simpkins, and Humphries. Normally, someone moves at the beginning of year, but not these 3. Very exciting.

[coach_williams]

Coach Williams, aaa coach 95 is correct unless they have changed the rules on the subject. As long as the wrestler makes base and all other eligibility rules are met. A wrestlers first weigh in could be the regional. If memory serve me correct I remember a wrestler ending his season on the top podium with a 7-0 record out of region 1 a few years ago.

Interesting. Thanks for the info. Out of curiosity, do you remember if the wrestler's record at the previous weight class was used for seeding?

[Gator]

Lastly, this topic made me think about 2 years ago, when we had 3 dominate type of wrestlers all in the same class. Allen, Simpkins, and Humphries. Normally, someone moves at the beginning of year, but not these 3. Very exciting.

Sorry to just pick this out of a good post coach, but I was amazed also that at least one of these young men didn't move up or down a weight class. It could have been to help their teams, they stayed where they were, but what matches they wrestled against each other. Some of the best I've ever witnessed!

[Bearhugger]

I figured out the answer. Hart and Adams have to be in the same weight class, and they have to still go by the rule, only one wrestler per team at the regions. Problem is, the winner of that wrestle off, will have byes all the way to the podium in Huntington. lol.

Assuming this rule will never pass, lol, and to get back to the original question, because I have mixed feelings and would like to hear others thoughts.

Here is the situation. This year, AA has a bunch of real good wrestlers that have potential to win a state title, and most of them are Seniors. They all want a chance to accomplish the dream of winning a state title. Exciting thing is, this bunch, is all around the same weight, which makes it exciting to see who prevails between them to stand on the podium. Just like most years, at the beginning of year, wrestlers check out the field and get into a class that's best for them. So when a good wrestler that is a senior learns they have a wrestler like a Hart or Adams in their weight class, then the dream becomes unrealistic to them. Therefore those seniors often move to another weight class so they can keep their dream still alive and realistic. We see this all the time. Probably every year. Usually its not a problem for them to move at this point or plan to move, because a plan is put in place for the Senior to move classes when he becomes eligible, and this allows the bumped wrestler to put a plan together as well. I don't see a problem with this happening because the bumped wrestler has plenty of time to put their own plan together to drop or go up. Actually, as a fan, I love it when a dominate wrestler, like a Hart and Adams, is around the same weight as a group of other real good wrestlers. I love it because those real good wrestlers avoid the dominate wrestlers, and as a result, we have a bunch of real good wrestlers in the same weight class. Awesome for fans to see this great competition. Example of this was at the WSAZs this year. The 182 class had wrestlers that were typically seeded 1 or 2, actually seeded 6,7,8, or 9. Now that's exciting to watch play out. So the moving that was done prior to or up until this point is not a problem for teams or wrestlers. Nor is it unfair to the bumped wrestler. If anything, its unfair to the dominant wrestler because I'm sure he wants to have more competitive matches during his year, and with wrestlers moving outside a dominant wrestlers class, they usually have to wait until after the season to go to nationals or travel out of state to big national tournaments. Having said that, the problem this year is more complicated. This year, the seniors or good wrestlers are moving TWICE to keep their title chances and dreams alive. They are moving again for the same reason, to avoid the same guy or dominate wrestler, and this was not apart of the plan for these real good wrestlers. lol. This is a problem because when those good wrestlers move again, or move back to original weight, at this point in the season, often the bumped wrestler doesn't have any options to put a plan together to move again. They cant go down, because they will not have enough weigh ins, or simply do not have time to lose the two lbs per week to make weight. Some just cant lose enough in a short time. If they go up a class, then they may not be able to win against their bigger teammate. Either way, this wrestler is SOL. So the question is, is this fair to the bumped wrestler? On the other hand, some coaches wont let the senior or good wrestler bump back to original class, because they have a wrestler that has worked hard all year and been at that weight all year, and they are not going to force them the move again. So now the senior with the best chance to bring home a title is SOL, or they decide to go up two weight classes or stop eating because they want to have the chance to be competitive again or should I say, keep their dream of winning a title alive. This is a hard decision for coaches because if they don't let the good wrestler move again, the school also loses a chance to have a state champion wrestler. What makes this a bigger problem, is again the fact we have so many seniors that are real good wrestlers that are seeking that title, but only have just a few weight classes to wrestle in, and even fewer, if you take away the class with the dominate wrestler. So what's the answer or fair thing to do?

A few things to take into consideration:
- I don't think these wrestlers are scared of competition, I just think that want a chance to compete for a title. Facing someone like a Hart or Adams for most, is not much of a chance.
-I don't think any rules should be put in place to prevent this from happening again because this situation does not happen often, therefore I don't think we will see so many moves being made this late in year very often.
-Should the age and quality of the bumped wrestler be taken into consideration? Such as a senior moving twice, that forces a freshman to be bumped or forced to move up and wrestle heavier opponents. My opinion is yes, because if the bumped wrestler is only a 9th grader, with little chance to place in Huntington, then a team needs to do what's best for the wrestler and school. If the bumped wrestler was another senior, that's goal is to make it to states or make the podium, then he deserves that chance. Although some disagree and I will say, I see this point too.

Lastly, this topic made me think about 2 years ago, when we had 3 dominate type of wrestlers all in the same class. Allen, Simpkins, and Humphries. Normally, someone moves at the beginning of year, but not these 3. Very exciting.

A good coach should have solid rules in place BEFORE the season starts regarding wrestle offs. The rules should be communicated to the wrestlers and their parents. Once the season starts, the rules are followed. One aspect should be that Wrestler A has to give a week's notice to the coach and the team that he is planning on moving down. This gives the other wrestlers time to also cut down or to prepare to stand their ground. I am sure poorly managed wrestle offs have cost a few teams some good wrestlers over time.

[Sally]

"A good coach" has multiple meanings to different people.

Bear, are you saying that once "a good coach" has rules in writing they should not be changed during season?

[coach_williams]

I am with bearhugger on this. Established rules for wrestle-offs and changing weights is important to team chemistry. When I was HC I had a clearly explained policy that winning 3 consecutive wrestle-offs resulted in that wrestler being named varsity for the rest of the season in that weight class, and a wrestler could only move up/down into a weight class immediately after losing a wrestle-off if there was no one else in the weight class. If he/she lost a wrestle-off and there was someone already in the other weight class, they could not immediately move into that weight class and get a wrestle-off for it too, they had to wait a week and be JV at whichever weight class they wanted a wrestle-off for the next week. I never had any problems with weight class changes or wrestle-offs with this policy.

[Sally]

I am with bearhugger on this. Established rules for wrestle-offs and changing weights is important to team chemistry. When I was HC I had a clearly explained policy that winning 3 consecutive wrestle-offs resulted in that wrestler being named varsity for the rest of the season in that weight class, and a wrestler could only move up/down into a weight class immediately after losing a wrestle-off if there was no one else in the weight class. If he/she lost a wrestle-off and there was someone already in the other weight class, they could not immediately move into that weight class and get a wrestle-off for it too, they had to wait a week and be JV at whichever weight class they wanted a wrestle-off for the next week. I never had any problems with weight class changes or wrestle-offs with this policy.

The bigger question to be answered is: After a rule is written and in place, should it be changed? If so when is the right time to change it?
If the coach believes it should not be changed, is he right?

Perception

[aaacoach89]

I am with bearhugger on this. Established rules for wrestle-offs and changing weights is important to team chemistry. When I was HC I had a clearly explained policy that winning 3 consecutive wrestle-offs resulted in that wrestler being named varsity for the rest of the season in that weight class, and a wrestler could only move up/down into a weight class immediately after losing a wrestle-off if there was no one else in the weight class. If he/she lost a wrestle-off and there was someone already in the other weight class, they could not immediately move into that weight class and get a wrestle-off for it too, they had to wait a week and be JV at whichever weight class they wanted a wrestle-off for the next week. I never had any problems with weight class changes or wrestle-offs with this policy.

The bigger question to be answered is: After a rule is written and in place, should it be changed? If so when is the right time to change it?
If the coach believes it should not be changed, is he right?

Perception

I think that written rules in place, can and should be changed by the coach if there is an alternative, logical, legitimate point that can be made for the rule change. I think that there is a time and place for that discussion between the coaching staff, and once the decision is made that there is a unified front presented to the team. Every head coach has a system, a way they like things done. The core of that system should remain, but all things evolve and can be tweaked to be made better, that is growth and the ability to adapt to an ever changing environment. The best leaders, which coaches are leaders of young men, have the ability to listen and change when it is what is best for the group or team. What is best, is up to the coach in the end. Sometimes good decisions and changes are made, sometimes not. Not a perfect science.

[coach_williams]

The bigger question to be answered is: After a rule is written and in place, should it be changed? If so when is the right time to change it?
If the coach believes it should not be changed, is he right?

Perception

My 2 pennies is there would be factors to be considered. Does a parent want the rule changed because their "Lil Champ" got pinned in 36 seconds by the 128 so he immediately wants to drop to 120 and wrestle off there too? No. If he wanted to be 120 he should have wrestled off there to begin with. Lil Champ can wait until next week.

Off the top of my head I can't think of a reason that would warrant a mid-season change in wrestle-off rules, but perhaps someone else can.

The coach should listen to reason, but not automatically agree to change just because a parent wants change. The bigger picture has to be considered. If a coach states a rule at the beginning of the season then I would expect he/she would stick to that rule throughout the season and not change it unless there was undeniable evidence that sticking to it would cause harm.

[aaacoach89]

The bigger question to be answered is: After a rule is written and in place, should it be changed? If so when is the right time to change it?
If the coach believes it should not be changed, is he right?

Perception

My 2 pennies is there would be factors to be considered. Does a parent want the rule changed because their "Lil Champ" got pinned in 36 seconds by the 128 so he immediately wants to drop to 120 and wrestle off there too? No. If he wanted to be 120 he should have wrestled off there to begin with. Lil Champ can wait until next week.

Off the top of my head I can't think of a reason that would warrant a mid-season change in wrestle-off rules, but perhaps someone else can.

The coach should listen to reason, but not automatically agree to change just because a parent wants change. The bigger picture has to be considered. If a coach states a rule at the beginning of the season then I would expect he/she would stick to that rule throughout the season and not change it unless there was undeniable evidence that sticking to it would cause harm.

Well said!

[mike.carman]

The bigger question to be answered is: After a rule is written and in place, should it be changed? If so when is the right time to change it?
If the coach believes it should not be changed, is he right?

Perception

My 2 pennies is there would be factors to be considered. Does a parent want the rule changed because their "Lil Champ" got pinned in 36 seconds by the 128 so he immediately wants to drop to 120 and wrestle off there too? No. If he wanted to be 120 he should have wrestled off there to begin with. Lil Champ can wait until next week.

Off the top of my head I can't think of a reason that would warrant a mid-season change in wrestle-off rules, but perhaps someone else can.

The coach should listen to reason, but not automatically agree to change just because a parent wants change. The bigger picture has to be considered. If a coach states a rule at the beginning of the season then I would expect he/she would stick to that rule throughout the season and not change it unless there was undeniable evidence that sticking to it would cause harm.

Well said!

My 2 cents. This is high school. It is between the wrestler and his coach. The only reason a parent should step in is in the case the wrestler/child is doing something the parents see to be potentially dangerous. Otherwise, butt out.

[coach_williams]

My 2 cents. This is high school. It is between the wrestler and his coach. The only reason a parent should step in is in the case the wrestler/child is doing something the parents see to be potentially dangerous. Otherwise, butt out.

↑↑↑↑↑ What he said ↑↑↑↑↑

[Bearhugger]

"A good coach" has multiple meanings to different people.

Bear, are you saying that once "a good coach" has rules in writing they should not be changed during season?

Regarding wrestle offs, yes! Figure it out, document it, communicate it and then live with it. If the coach's girlfriend's son gets beat out, then it is because he is NOT the cream. Don't go changing things, adding new stuff, etc, etc to stack the deck in favor of the "favorite".

In the workplace, companies have policies and procedures. Heck, the WVSSAC has policies and procedures.

[Bearhugger]

I am with bearhugger on this. Established rules for wrestle-offs and changing weights is important to team chemistry. When I was HC I had a clearly explained policy that winning 3 consecutive wrestle-offs resulted in that wrestler being named varsity for the rest of the season in that weight class, and a wrestler could only move up/down into a weight class immediately after losing a wrestle-off if there was no one else in the weight class. If he/she lost a wrestle-off and there was someone already in the other weight class, they could not immediately move into that weight class and get a wrestle-off for it too, they had to wait a week and be JV at whichever weight class they wanted a wrestle-off for the next week. I never had any problems with weight class changes or wrestle-offs with this policy.

The bigger question to be answered is: After a rule is written and in place, should it be changed? If so when is the right time to change it?
If the coach believes it should not be changed, is he right?

Perception

The justification to change should out weight the justification not to change. Wrestle offs is something that should not have 47 variables.

1. When should wrestle offs be held?
2. Do you go best 2 out of 3?
3. What point spread is needed to avoid doing best 2 out of 3?
4. If the Varsity wrestler is winning, how often does he need to wrestle off?
5. How do you handle wrestle offs for the conference and regional tournaments?

You cover these bases, there should be very little to happen that would require a mid season rule change.

[maskedman]

In the workplace, companies have policies and procedures. Heck, the WVSSAC has policies and procedures.

So wrestlers, parents, and coaches live with rules and regulations, no reason to adjust, but if you are an out of state fan that used to live in Charleston, WV, complain about the rules, demand change, post 1000 posts of how everything is screwed up and things should be changed to meet your opinion.

No explanation necessary. Clear as mud.

[KennyFPowers]

How did the coach handle wrestle offs at Stonewall Jackson in the mid-80's?

[Bearhugger]

How did the coach handle wrestle offs at Stonewall Jackson in the mid-80's?

One year they were handled one way with rules being made up along the way. The next season, they were handled differently......contradictory to the previous year.

[Bearhugger]

In the workplace, companies have policies and procedures. Heck, the WVSSAC has policies and procedures.

So wrestlers, parents, and coaches live with rules and regulations, no reason to adjust, but if you are an out of state fan that used to live in Charleston, WV, complain about the rules, demand change, post 1000 posts of how everything is screwed up and things should be changed to meet your opinion.

No explanation necessary. Clear as mud.

What is your opinion on the current state of wrestling in West Virginia? Why don't you post something of contribution? What are your ideas?