The History of Cream

[Bearhugger]

Deep within the archives of WVMAT’s wealth of historical data, we have the total individual state champions by school.

Upon reviewing this information for the 29 AAA schools, here are the state champions by school and by region:

Region 1:
Brooke 17
Buck Up 7
John Marshall 36
Morgantown 13
Preston 3
University 28
Wheeling Park 47
Total Region 1 151

Region 2:
Hampshire 0
Hedgesville 5
Jefferson 7
Martinsburg 1
Musselman 9
Spring Mills 0
Washington 1
Total Region 2 23

Region 3:
Capital 1
George Washington 19
Greenbrier East 2
Princeton 0
Riverside 0
South Charleston 4
St. Albans 2
Woodrow Wilson 29
Total Region 3 57

Region 4:
Cabell Midland 14
Huntington 43
Hurricane 6
Parkersburg 153
Parkersburg South 81
Ripley 26
Spring Valley 0
Total Region 4 323

To get a better snapshot of more recent history, here are the same 29 AAA schools by region and their corresponding individual state champions in the last five seasons (2012 through 2016):

Region 1:
Brooke 1
Buck Up 4
John Marshall 0
Morgantown 0
Preston 2
University 3
Wheeling Park 4
Total Region 1 14

Region 2:
Hampshire 0
Hedgesville 0
Jefferson 0
Martinsburg 0
Musselman 2
Spring Mills 0
Washington 0
Total Region 2 2

Region 3:
Capital 0
George Washington 6
Greenbrier East 0
Princeton 0
Riverside 0
South Charleston 0
St. Albans 1
Woodrow Wilson 0
Total Region 3 7

Region 4:
Cabell Midland 3
Huntington 10
Hurricane 0
Parkersburg 7
Parkersburg South 7
Ripley 8
Spring Valley 0
Total Region 4 35

To put the two different historical snapshots into perspective to what is happening today, here are the same 29 schools with their current total number one ranked wrestlers (per the January 12, 2017 individual rankings):

Region 1:
Brooke 0
Buck Up 0
John Marshall 0
Morgantown 0
Preston 0
University 0
Wheeling Park 1
Total Region 1 1

Region 2:
Hampshire 0
Hedgesville 0
Jefferson 0
Martinsburg 0
Musselman 1
Spring Mills 0
Washington 0
Total Region 2 1

Region 3:
Capital 0
George Washington 0
Greenbrier East 0
Princeton 0
Riverside 1
South Charleston 0
St. Albans 2
Woodrow Wilson 0
Total Region 3 3

Region 4:
Cabell Midland 0
Huntington 0
Hurricane 0
Parkersburg 2
Parkersburg South 6
Ripley 0
Spring Valley 1
Total Region 4 9

Summary
1. 29 AAA schools’ total history: 554 state champions. 323 from the new region 4. 323 / 554 = 58.30%

2. 29 AAA schools’ past 5 year history: 58 state champions. 35 from the new region 4. 35 / 58 = 60.35%

3. 29 AAA schools’ current #1 ranked wrestlers (as of January 12, 2017) 14 #1 ranked wrestlers. 9 from the new region 4. 9 / 14 = 64.29%

The cream always rises to the top and approximately 60% of the time, it is happening with the new region 4 schools. The other 40% is scattered across THREE other regions.

Enjoy!

[Bunk]

To be fair Region 1 had Parkersburg and South the last several years, and Point Pleasant put a few guys on top of the podium the last several years from Region 4 AAA. Reclassification took a Shady Spring state champ away from Region 3 as well. Realignment Also somewhat skews these findings. Prior to that the Marion County Schools regularly put guys up high on the AAA podium from 2012 back several years. Although whatever region has PHS and South will always be weighted more heavily with talent the spread of talent outside of that isn't nearly as severe.

[RWWS]

You are assigning 234 championsto Region 4 that actually belong in Region 1. So if you do your math to reflect the regions as they were wrestled prior to this year you will actually see the dominance of Region 1. Also please add in Oak Glen because they were in the region as well prior to dropping to AA so the number of state champions would go up. Region 1 teams won 38 of the last 41 state team titles. So what is the real issue with the realignment? Great wrestlers have not qualified out of Region 1 for years I didn't hear Coach Evans, Coach Hanlin, Coach Shaw or Coach Jackson ever complain about it and thankfully I don't see any coaches complaining here either.

[mike.carman]

To put the two different historical snapshots into perspective to what is happening today, here are the same 29 schools with their current total number one ranked wrestlers (per the January 12, 2017 individual rankings):

Region 1:
Brooke 0
Buck Up 0
John Marshall 0
Morgantown 0
Preston 0
University 0
Wheeling Park 1
Total Region 1 1

Region 2:
Hampshire 0
Hedgesville 0
Jefferson 0
Martinsburg 0
Musselman 1
Spring Mills 0
Washington 0
Total Region 2 1

Region 3:
Capital 0
George Washington 0
Greenbrier East 0
Princeton 0
Riverside 1
South Charleston 0
St. Albans 2
Woodrow Wilson 0
Total Region 3 3

Region 4:
Cabell Midland 0
Huntington 0
Hurricane 0
Parkersburg 2
Parkersburg South 6
Ripley 0
Spring Valley 1
Total Region 4 9

Summary
1. 29 AAA schools’ total history: 554 state champions. 323 from the new region 4. 323 / 554 = 58.30%

2. 29 AAA schools’ past 5 year history: 58 state champions. 35 from the new region 4. 35 / 58 = 60.35%

3. 29 AAA schools’ current #1 ranked wrestlers (as of January 12, 2017) 14 #1 ranked wrestlers. 9 from the new region 4. 9 / 14 = 64.29%

The cream always rises to the top and approximately 60% of the time, it is happening with the new region 4 schools. The other 40% is scattered across THREE other regions.

Enjoy!

Sorry Bear. I see you were talking about one ranked wrestlers. My fault.

[RWWS]

Also in the 41 years I spoke of above a Region 1 team has placed in the top 2 every year. Will that dominance shift to Region 4 now, possibly.

[guard0544]

You are assigning 234 championsto Region 4 that actually belong in Region 1. So if you do your math to reflect the regions as they were wrestled prior to this year you will actually see the dominance of Region 1. Also please add in Oak Glen because they were in the region as well prior to dropping to AA so the number of state champions would go up. Region 1 teams won 38 of the last 41 state team titles. So what is the real issue with the realignment? Great wrestlers have not qualified out of Region 1 for years I didn't hear Coach Evans, Coach Hanlin, Coach Shaw or Coach Jackson ever complain about it and thankfully I don't see any coaches complaining here either.

The posted stats are not intended to compare regions to each other from a historical perspective. It is intended to compare the historical, recent, and present performance of the TEAMS currently within each region. To that end, it would be pointless and very misleading to attribute the successes of a team to their former region. The post was providing a glimpse of the current regional makeup.

[RWWS]

The point im trying to make is that the regions have been lopsided for years. Why is it an issue now? Why did they get realigned? Would we be having this conversation if they weren't?

[captaincoalman]

Found this interesting and had no idea it was this lopsided so i thought i would look at the individual rankings and compare them to the teams in region 4. As we all know the top 4 in the region qualify for the state tournament. The following weight classes will have kids ranked in the top 10 in the state but will not qualify for state.

wt. top 10
113 6
120 6
132 6
138 5
145 5
152 5
170 5
182 5
So 11 kids ranked in the top 10 in their weight class by the coaches will not qualify for the 16 man bracket at the state tournament. To me this is a shame.

[RWWS]

It happens every year

[RWWS]

Does anyone recall any complaints about regions last year?

[Jbee]

Does anyone recall any complaints about regions last year?

None, Really interesting why thats all that is on this board now. Its probably not an coincidence!

[RWWS]

Exactly

[mike.carman]

Found this interesting and had no idea it was this lopsided so i thought i would look at the individual rankings and compare them to the teams in region 4. As we all know the top 4 in the region qualify for the state tournament. The following weight classes will have kids ranked in the top 10 in the state but will not qualify for state.

wt. top 10
113 6
120 6
132 6
138 5
145 5
152 5
170 5
182 5
So 11 kids ranked in the top 10 in their weight class by the coaches will not qualify for the 16 man bracket at the state tournament. To me this is a shame.

Best I can tell before re-alignment.
Region I
2016
106 4
113 6
120 3
126 3
132 3
138 3
145 4
152 4
160 3
170 4
182 5
195 4
220 5
285 3
4 not getting out of region
2015
106 3
113 5
120 3
126 4
132 3
138 4
145 3
152 4
160 6
170 3
182 4
195 5
220 2
285 4
4 not getting out of region
2014
106 3
113 3
120 4
126 2
132 4
138 4
145 5
152 5
160 6
170 3
182 2
195 4
220 5
285 3
5 not getting out of region
2013
106 4
113 4
120 4
126 3
132 4
138 6
145 6
152 4
160 5
170 4
182 6
195 4
220 5
285 4
8 not getting out of region
2012
106 2
113 5
120 4
126 2
132 3
138 4
145 6
152 4
160 5
170 6
182 6
195 5
220 5
285 3
10 Not getting out of region

Just saying, this is not a new situation. It's been going on for years.

[aaacoach89]

I am confused as to why "it's been this way for years" is a justifiable argument to not fix something. Just because something has been a certain way, does not make it what's in the best interest of the sport, kids, or state tournament. In all that I have read, the best idea so far is the North/South Region and take best 8 out of both. Region 1 was stacked for many years, now it's Region IV......I just don't understand why it has to be any Region that is so lopsided. I cannot grasp why the historically dominant teams can't be spread around. "That's the way it's always been" is a ridiculous reason to not tweak or fix something.

[mike.carman]

I am confused as to why "it's been this way for years" is a justifiable argument to not fix something. Just because something has been a certain way, does not make it what's in the best interest of the sport, kids, or state tournament. In all that I have read, the best idea so far is the North/South Region and take best 8 out of both. Region 1 was stacked for many years, now it's Region IV......I just don't understand why it has to be any Region that is so lopsided. I cannot grasp why the historically dominant teams can't be spread around. "That's the way it's always been" is a ridiculous reason to not tweak or fix something.

All anyone is saying is that it has been that way for years and no one had a problem with it before, why is everyone up in arms about it now? I live in region I and we dealt with it for 30 years. Has the competition at regional tournaments been weekend for us? Yes. Do I think it will always be that way? No. Everyone is operating under the assumption that Region IV will always be overly dominant. That is not going to be the case.

And quite honestly, we really are only talking about the AAA division anyway. There are a lot more wrestlers staying home who are good and they wrestle for A/AA schools. And some of them could very easily beat some of AAA top 10 ranked kids anyway.

[aaacoach89]

Again, I am not debating what the case was for Region I, and is now the case for Region IV. Not sure why everyone is up in arms now, but the fact of the matter is......it isn't right, regardless of who it affects. It wasn't right when it happened to Region I and it isn't now either. So as adults who have dedicated a large portion of our time and life to the worlds greatest sport, we can just say "well I had to deal with it when it wasn't fair, so too bad so sad for you", or we can really look at the situation and try to come to a resolution that will be a long term fix, put the best kids in the state tournament, and help our sport gain some traction.

[RWWS]

I believe that South and Parkersburg would get the same amount through regardless of the region they are in.

[vortexfan]

Again, I am not debating what the case was for Region I, and is now the case for Region IV. Not sure why everyone is up in arms now, but the fact of the matter is......it isn't right, regardless of who it affects. It wasn't right when it happened to Region I and it isn't now either. So as adults who have dedicated a large portion of our time and life to the worlds greatest sport, we can just say "well I had to deal with it when it wasn't fair, so too bad so sad for you", or we can really look at the situation and try to come to a resolution that will be a long term fix, put the best kids in the state tournament, and help our sport gain some traction.

Very good post; I believe it is talked about how the numbers are down with participants in wrestlers; byes in states.
Yes it's been this way for years and yes focus on winning and place in top four or you don't go but would
His not be good for the state tourney and future of the sport to fix this? Sure there will be exceptions and not perfect but a North and South region would improve the chances of those 5th and 6th placers from the past to get a true shot at the states! The best 16 wrestlers would mos likely would be at States year in year for years to come! What is so wrong with this? All AAA schools North of Ripley meet in North region all schools South of Ripley meet in the South region. Too 8 finishers go!

[RWWS]

Can someone post any realignment posts from prior to the realignment happening?

[guard0544]

I believe that South and Parkersburg would get the same amount through regardless of the region they are in.

I think they would likely get their full team through in any of the other regions this year. The odds are against that happening in Region IV. But they could still pull it off.

[Bearhugger]

To be fair Region 1 had Parkersburg and South the last several years, and Point Pleasant put a few guys on top of the podium the last several years from Region 4 AAA. Reclassification took a Shady Spring state champ away from Region 3 as well. Realignment Also somewhat skews these findings. Prior to that the Marion County Schools regularly put guys up high on the AAA podium from 2012 back several years. Although whatever region has PHS and South will always be weighted more heavily with talent the spread of talent outside of that isn't nearly as severe.

This is not a history of region 1 vs region 2 vs region 3 vs region 4. It is all about the schools, that are combined together, to form each new region today.

I am fully aware of the state champions from the other schools that have moved onto AA. The change has happened and this is now.

The point of the analysis was to show how poor of a decision it was to set the AAA regions as they are now.

[Bearhugger]

You are assigning 234 championsto Region 4 that actually belong in Region 1. So if you do your math to reflect the regions as they were wrestled prior to this year you will actually see the dominance of Region 1. Also please add in Oak Glen because they were in the region as well prior to dropping to AA so the number of state champions would go up. Region 1 teams won 38 of the last 41 state team titles. So what is the real issue with the realignment? Great wrestlers have not qualified out of Region 1 for years I didn't hear Coach Evans, Coach Hanlin, Coach Shaw or Coach Jackson ever complain about it and thankfully I don't see any coaches complaining here either.

The intent of the exercise was to show how poor of a decision it was to set the regions up as they are. Not to discredit the "history" of region 1 and to live in the old days when teams were full, forfeits were rare, and there were more than 29 schools in AAA.

[Bearhugger]

You are assigning 234 championsto Region 4 that actually belong in Region 1. So if you do your math to reflect the regions as they were wrestled prior to this year you will actually see the dominance of Region 1. Also please add in Oak Glen because they were in the region as well prior to dropping to AA so the number of state champions would go up. Region 1 teams won 38 of the last 41 state team titles. So what is the real issue with the realignment? Great wrestlers have not qualified out of Region 1 for years I didn't hear Coach Evans, Coach Hanlin, Coach Shaw or Coach Jackson ever complain about it and thankfully I don't see any coaches complaining here either.

The posted stats are not intended to compare regions to each other from a historical perspective. It is intended to compare the historical, recent, and present performance of the TEAMS currently within each region. To that end, it would be pointless and very misleading to attribute the successes of a team to their former region. The post was providing a glimpse of the current regional makeup.

BINGO!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WE HAVE A WINNER.

[Bearhugger]

You are assigning 234 championsto Region 4 that actually belong in Region 1. So if you do your math to reflect the regions as they were wrestled prior to this year you will actually see the dominance of Region 1. Also please add in Oak Glen because they were in the region as well prior to dropping to AA so the number of state champions would go up. Region 1 teams won 38 of the last 41 state team titles. So what is the real issue with the realignment? Great wrestlers have not qualified out of Region 1 for years I didn't hear Coach Evans, Coach Hanlin, Coach Shaw or Coach Jackson ever complain about it and thankfully I don't see any coaches complaining here either.

The championships belong to the school, not the region. The school is placed into a region. Some schools have been in three different regions in the past 8 years (Buck Up comes to mind).

Each given school has tradition or lack of, when it comes to wrestling. History shows successes due to tradition. Some schools lack wrestling success and they also lack tradition. Piling all of the weak schools into the same regions causes weak regions. It also serves as a breeding ground for state tournament byes.

When you pile many schools with great historical success and tradition into the same region, you get the mess we have now in region 4.

[Bearhugger]

To put the two different historical snapshots into perspective to what is happening today, here are the same 29 schools with their current total number one ranked wrestlers (per the January 12, 2017 individual rankings):

Region 1:
Brooke 0
Buck Up 0
John Marshall 0
Morgantown 0
Preston 0
University 0
Wheeling Park 1
Total Region 1 1

Region 2:
Hampshire 0
Hedgesville 0
Jefferson 0
Martinsburg 0
Musselman 1
Spring Mills 0
Washington 0
Total Region 2 1

Region 3:
Capital 0
George Washington 0
Greenbrier East 0
Princeton 0
Riverside 1
South Charleston 0
St. Albans 2
Woodrow Wilson 0
Total Region 3 3

Region 4:
Cabell Midland 0
Huntington 0
Hurricane 0
Parkersburg 2
Parkersburg South 6
Ripley 0
Spring Valley 1
Total Region 4 9

Summary
1. 29 AAA schools’ total history: 554 state champions. 323 from the new region 4. 323 / 554 = 58.30%

2. 29 AAA schools’ past 5 year history: 58 state champions. 35 from the new region 4. 35 / 58 = 60.35%

3. 29 AAA schools’ current #1 ranked wrestlers (as of January 12, 2017) 14 #1 ranked wrestlers. 9 from the new region 4. 9 / 14 = 64.29%

The cream always rises to the top and approximately 60% of the time, it is happening with the new region 4 schools. The other 40% is scattered across THREE other regions.

Enjoy!

Sorry Bear. I see you were talking about one ranked wrestlers. My fault.

I must have missed something.

[Bearhugger]

Does anyone recall any complaints about regions last year?

The information is available on the site to look at last year's regions in relation to the top 10.

It wasn't like this last year.

[Bearhugger]

Also in the 41 years I spoke of above a Region 1 team has placed in the top 2 every year. Will that dominance shift to Region 4 now, possibly.

Region 4 should fill the top 10 at the AAA state tournament this year. St. Albans should be up in there too.

[Bearhugger]

I am confused as to why "it's been this way for years" is a justifiable argument to not fix something. Just because something has been a certain way, does not make it what's in the best interest of the sport, kids, or state tournament. In all that I have read, the best idea so far is the North/South Region and take best 8 out of both. Region 1 was stacked for many years, now it's Region IV......I just don't understand why it has to be any Region that is so lopsided. I cannot grasp why the historically dominant teams can't be spread around. "That's the way it's always been" is a ridiculous reason to not tweak or fix something.

BINGO!!!!!!!!!!!! WE HAVE A WINNER!!!!!!!!!!!

Leaving things the way they are is acceptance. Undesirable situations become accepted rather than being changed. Not everybody likes what comes along with "its been this way for years", so they move away and take their wrestlers with them. AAA drops to AA. It also might be a reason why wrestling is last in most schools.

[vortexfan]

Thanks for guys like bearhugger; Gator, Frank. There should be concerns to make the sport better, why not be open minded about what's right? I'm not saying everyone gets participation trophies,It takes outside the box logical thinking to get the best wrestlers to compete and keep saying how other systems gives advantages to the powerhouses; they won em and may still win titles regardless if a change happens or not. If you have 16 of the best wrestlers at the states it improves the right cream rises to the top; Possibly some of the 2nd to 4th place team finishers will have more of their team at states too; there's been some good cream that was not there due to the regional alignments in the past and present.

[Bearhugger]

I am confused as to why "it's been this way for years" is a justifiable argument to not fix something. Just because something has been a certain way, does not make it what's in the best interest of the sport, kids, or state tournament. In all that I have read, the best idea so far is the North/South Region and take best 8 out of both. Region 1 was stacked for many years, now it's Region IV......I just don't understand why it has to be any Region that is so lopsided. I cannot grasp why the historically dominant teams can't be spread around. "That's the way it's always been" is a ridiculous reason to not tweak or fix something.

All anyone is saying is that it has been that way for years and no one had a problem with it before, why is everyone up in arms about it now? I live in region I and we dealt with it for 30 years. Has the competition at regional tournaments been weekend for us? Yes. Do I think it will always be that way? No. Everyone is operating under the assumption that Region IV will always be overly dominant. That is not going to be the case.

And quite honestly, we really are only talking about the AAA division anyway. There are a lot more wrestlers staying home who are good and they wrestle for A/AA schools. And some of them could very easily beat some of AAA top 10 ranked kids anyway.

I do not see any team taking over and leaving South, Parkersburg or Huntington back in 8 through 20th place for the next 10 years.