For the success of WV wrestling in general

[wvnorth]

This kinda goes w the forfeit thread and AAA solution thread. There are typically 3 types of wrestlers pretty much everywhere. 1) The kids who train and compete all year. 2) The kids who play several sports and stay active, maybe hit some opens through summer. 3) Kids that sign up in November and turn in their gear in March. In many cases a lot of the kids in the 2 and 3 part would probably be more active in wrestling year round and obviously more competitive in season if they had a place to train and someone to coach them out of season. Not every kid has the luxury of a club nearby, a designated person to take them faithfully or maybe the club fees are too much money. I understand the state rules and what they mean about promoting team mentality over individualism but considering the lack of participation in some areas and the probable cause I wonder if relaxing the rules on open gyms and coach participation would help. I know this has likely been discussed a hundred times before but I think it's a good time to discuss it again. Give the kids who have the desire but not the opportunity a chance to be the best they are willing to be.

[J.W.]

Amen

[Bearhugger]

I am not familiar with the rules as to what is allowed and what is not allowed.

So to continue this discussion is a solution oriented manner, I shall say this.

1. Talk to the principal. Get permission to access the mat room at the school.

2. Don't have the coach involved. Find somebody else to "hold the key".

3. Lets the kids wrestle. Two kids down in the smallest town wrestling with each other year round will improve their game.

4. Does somebody have a big room in their house? It might not be good for takedowns, but they could wrestle down on the floor and work on their riding, tilts, pinning, and escapes.

The bottom line is that your kid needs at least one other kid and a safe surface to wrestle on. If you got this, then improvements can be made. You do not need to spend $1,200 to send your kid to Fargo to go 0-2 to improve.

Across the board, the kids of West Virginia are getting beat in the weight room when it comes to succeeding in these larger out of state tournaments.

If your kid cannot throw around the iron equivalent of his body weight numerous times(160 pound kid squatting 160 pounds 20+ reps), then learning 1,000 holds will not help much.

[hurrmat1]

I agree with the lifting weights off season. I run a program during the summer for kids, usually have about 25-30 kids. For the kids under 13-14, it's body weight oriented, sand bags, tire drags, etc. The older kids do the old school tire flips, sled drags, rope climbs, box jumps, etc... Plus we lift weights 4 days a week. Focus mostly on basic core lifts. Squats, Deadlifts, Strict Press, Bench, Barbell Rows and Power Cleans. Been doing this for 2 years with our kids, and have seen results. Kids are bigger and stronger than years past.

During the season, I am not a big fan of lifting more than 2x a week... One or two lifts for 2 sets, sub max reps (leaving 1 or 2 reps in the tank). The rigors of the season and practice tear the body up pretty good, so lifting without having a qualified strength coach or plan in place can hurt more than it helps. I research this topic a lot, see lots of varying opinions on the college level.

Zach Evan Esh, used to be strength coach at Lehigh, and runs undergroundstrengthcoach.com has some good stuff for any coaches interested.

[Bearhugger]

I agree with the lifting weights off season. I run a program during the summer for kids, usually have about 25-30 kids. For the kids under 13-14, it's body weight oriented, sand bags, tire drags, etc. The older kids do the old school tire flips, sled drags, rope climbs, box jumps, etc... Plus we lift weights 4 days a week. Focus mostly on basic core lifts. Squats, Deadlifts, Strict Press, Bench, Barbell Rows and Power Cleans. Been doing this for 2 years with our kids, and have seen results. Kids are bigger and stronger than years past.

During the season, I am not a big fan of lifting more than 2x a week... One or two lifts for 2 sets, sub max reps (leaving 1 or 2 reps in the tank). The rigors of the season and practice tear the body up pretty good, so lifting without having a qualified strength coach or plan in place can hurt more than it helps. I research this topic a lot, see lots of varying opinions on the college level.

Zach Evan Esh, used to be strength coach at Lehigh, and runs undergroundstrengthcoach.com has some good stuff for any coaches interested.

It sounds to me that you are more qualified than the vast majority based on my observations.

1. Doing these exercises is where it begins.
2. Sticking with them DURING the season is key.

Lacking strength and the proper kind of conditioning is holding the best of WV's best back from achieving more advancement in these bigger, tougher tournaments.

Many folks think if Wrestler A knows 8 techniques and doesn't win, then he needs to go learn 8 more techniques. I agree that knowing 16 techniques is better, but the real key is fixing the individual so they can win more with the 8 techniques they already know.

I see kids that can't get up off the mat due to their lack of physical strength. I see a kid who has everything to get in on a double leg but lacks the upper body strength to hang onto his opponents legs. He misses a lot of takedowns because of this.

[Bearhugger]

I agree with the lifting weights off season. I run a program during the summer for kids, usually have about 25-30 kids. For the kids under 13-14, it's body weight oriented, sand bags, tire drags, etc. The older kids do the old school tire flips, sled drags, rope climbs, box jumps, etc... Plus we lift weights 4 days a week. Focus mostly on basic core lifts. Squats, Deadlifts, Strict Press, Bench, Barbell Rows and Power Cleans. Been doing this for 2 years with our kids, and have seen results. Kids are bigger and stronger than years past.

During the season, I am not a big fan of lifting more than 2x a week... One or two lifts for 2 sets, sub max reps (leaving 1 or 2 reps in the tank). The rigors of the season and practice tear the body up pretty good, so lifting without having a qualified strength coach or plan in place can hurt more than it helps. I research this topic a lot, see lots of varying opinions on the college level.

Zach Evan Esh, used to be strength coach at Lehigh, and runs undergroundstrengthcoach.com has some good stuff for any coaches interested.

I would think the football coaches would be advocating this same program. Thus advocating kids wrestling. I guess with all of the "old dogs" in wrestling, we got them in football too. I would want my lineman flipping tires. I would want my running backs dragging sleds. As Noah Adams said on the news, "a double leg is like tackling somebody". Do you recall the humiliating defeat WVU had a few years ago to Pitt. 7-3 loss or something like that. Pitt's tackling was incredible. They were catching ankles and stopping plays.

Oh well, some school somewhere in WV will figure it out and have YEAR round strength training for their kids while the SAME kids play football and wrestle.

[hurrmat1]

In my experience, two people that are of equal skill and talent go head to head....the physically stronger kid wins. Period.

[Bearhugger]

In my experience, two people that are of equal skill and talent go head to head....the physically stronger kid wins. Period.

You sound like Noah Adams' dad. I am sure you have heard of Noah Adams.

[hurrmat1]

Oh yes! I've watched him over the last couple years. Watched him at Virginia Beach this year, right after he crushed it at Flo Nationals. Great kid!!

[coach_williams]

I hate to be the "nay-sayer" here, but a few issues that many people do not realize exist are what causes some of these problems.

1. Non-school employees/non-certified coaches using the school/county wrestling room and mat is an insurance liability for the school system. The risk of a multi-million dollar lawsuit against the school system due to an injury will slam the door on many off-season programs. Don't even get me started on the sexual predator risk aspect, which is a big part of what makes being a citizen coach such a challenge.

2. The cost of wrestling mats to have an "off-site" practice location is difficult for most people to overcome. Even a 12x12 practice mat for your home will run in excess of $600 from most places unless you catch a sale.

3. In spite of what they say, many football coaches want their players bulking for football season, not losing weight and building muscle. Yes, we who know wrestling are fully aware that a 160 pound wrestler who is rippling with muscle is a much better athlete than a 195 pounder that has 30 pounds of excess body fat, but many football coaches like the idea of that 195 pounder on their defensive line much better than the 160 pounder. Many of them will say they support their football players wrestling while dropping subtle hints to their players that the weight room is where they should be in the off-season.

[mscoach64]

as a head coach in football and also having served as a wrestling coach.....I very much want my football players to wrestle, play basketball, baseball, track, etc. The more muscle they develop in the more areas that they can develop the better. As far as lifting is concerned, unless the school provides a lifting class, then its nearly impossible to have team lifting sessions all year long.

[aaacoach34]

I hate to be the "nay-sayer" here, but a few issues that many people do not realize exist are what causes some of these problems.

1. Non-school employees/non-certified coaches using the school/county wrestling room and mat is an insurance liability for the school system. The risk of a multi-million dollar lawsuit against the school system due to an injury will slam the door on many off-season programs. Don't even get me started on the sexual predator risk aspect, which is a big part of what makes being a citizen coach such a challenge.

2. The cost of wrestling mats to have an "off-site" practice location is difficult for most people to overcome. Even a 12x12 practice mat for your home will run in excess of $600 from most places unless you catch a sale.

3. In spite of what they say, many football coaches want their players bulking for football season, not losing weight and building muscle. Yes, we who know wrestling are fully aware that a 160 pound wrestler who is rippling with muscle is a much better athlete than a 195 pounder that has 30 pounds of excess body fat, but many football coaches like the idea of that 195 pounder on their defensive line much better than the 160 pounder. Many of them will say they support their football players wrestling while dropping subtle hints to their players that the weight room is where they should be in the off-season.

You are 100% correct about #3

[Bearhugger]

So many football coaches encourage kids to be fat for football as opposed to wrestling. I believe it. WV ranks high in obesity and forfeits. WV doesn't rank high in top notch football recruits, football scholarships awarded and players that make it to the NFL.

Maybe things would turn around if the promotion was on raising healthy kids that are being all that they can be?

As for lifting class? Each school should start one.

When I was in high school, the last period of the day was for football players to lift weights. They had specific lifts to do and they were measured on improving.

The football players got their lifting in and then reported to wrestling practice after school.

I guess somewhere along the way, this was phased out.

[mike.carman]

Couldn't agree more!!!!!!

[Bearhugger]

I guess if people know the rules and the laws, then they have half of the information needed to solve their wrestling problem.

Accept the status quo (old dog, no new tricks mentality) or find a way to get kids on a safe surface to wrestle on in the off season (where there is a will, there is a way mentality).

Good luck to all in your wrestling endeavors.

[aaacoach34]

So many football coaches encourage kids to be fat for football as opposed to wrestling. I believe it. WV ranks high in obesity and forfeits. WV doesn't rank high in top notch football recruits, football scholarships awarded and players that make it to the NFL.

Maybe things would turn around if the promotion was on raising healthy kids that are being all that they can be?

As for lifting class? Each school should start one.

When I was in high school, the last period of the day was for football players to lift weights. They had specific lifts to do and they were measured on improving.

The football players got their lifting in and then reported to wrestling practice after school.

I guess somewhere along the way, this was phased out.

Our school has weight lifting classes for all students and the the people who teach the classes are all football coaches.

[Bearhugger]

So many football coaches encourage kids to be fat for football as opposed to wrestling. I believe it. WV ranks high in obesity and forfeits. WV doesn't rank high in top notch football recruits, football scholarships awarded and players that make it to the NFL.

Maybe things would turn around if the promotion was on raising healthy kids that are being all that they can be?

As for lifting class? Each school should start one.

When I was in high school, the last period of the day was for football players to lift weights. They had specific lifts to do and they were measured on improving.

The football players got their lifting in and then reported to wrestling practice after school.

I guess somewhere along the way, this was phased out.

Our school has weight lifting classes for all students and the the people who teach the classes are all football coaches.

Is this something that a student can sign up for each semester for each of their four years of high school?

[aaacoach34]

So many football coaches encourage kids to be fat for football as opposed to wrestling. I believe it. WV ranks high in obesity and forfeits. WV doesn't rank high in top notch football recruits, football scholarships awarded and players that make it to the NFL.

Maybe things would turn around if the promotion was on raising healthy kids that are being all that they can be?

As for lifting class? Each school should start one.

When I was in high school, the last period of the day was for football players to lift weights. They had specific lifts to do and they were measured on improving.

The football players got their lifting in and then reported to wrestling practice after school.

I guess somewhere along the way, this was phased out.

Our school has weight lifting classes for all students and the the people who teach the classes are all football coaches.

Is this something that a student can sign up for each semester for each of their four years of high school?

Yes they may request the class and it is for the whole year. Football players are given first priority.

[Bearhugger]

Our school has weight lifting classes for all students and the the people who teach the classes are all football coaches.

Is this something that a student can sign up for each semester for each of their four years of high school?

Yes they may request the class and it is for the whole year. Football players are given first priority.

Is the weight room open and supervised AFTER school for the football players to lift more?

[aaacoach34]

Is this something that a student can sign up for each semester for each of their four years of high school?

Yes they may request the class and it is for the whole year. Football players are given first priority.

Is the weight room open and supervised AFTER school for the football players to lift more?

Yes, its open after schools and supervised. Most non football players will not go because they don't feel like they are welcome.

[mattman]

I am not familiar with the rules as to what is allowed and what is not allowed.

So to continue this discussion is a solution oriented manner, I shall say this.

1. Talk to the principal. Get permission to access the mat room at the school.

2. Don't have the coach involved. Find somebody else to "hold the key".

3. Lets the kids wrestle. Two kids down in the smallest town wrestling with each other year round will improve their game.

4. Does somebody have a big room in their house? It might not be good for takedowns, but they could wrestle down on the floor and work on their riding, tilts, pinning, and escapes.

The bottom line is that your kid needs at least one other kid and a safe surface to wrestle on. If you got this, then improvements can be made. You do not need to spend $1,200 to send your kid to Fargo to go 0-2 to improve.

Across the board, the kids of West Virginia are getting beat in the weight room when it comes to succeeding in these larger out of state tournaments.

If your kid cannot throw around the iron equivalent of his body weight numerous times(160 pound kid squatting 160 pounds 20+ reps), then learning 1,000 holds will not help much.

i agree with every statement. Especially the 1200$ fargo trip. You could hit a super gold medal training camp and wrestle some tough PA competition for 10 days straight for less. If you are good enough to go battle out 12 matches than that is one thing, but, if you are still learning I say spend the money on a good camp!

[Matofficial]

Just like any program their are many variables when it comes to a successful strength program. It seems that there are more experts in strength training than people to train. Having vast experience in the field it's always good to not judge a book by its cover. A lot of the times the best builtlooking kids are not as strong as a well trained strength athlete. Strength is deceiving. I don't know the Lehigh coach that used to be there but I do know the one that has been there for the last 7 or 8 years. The advice that was given is the same as I have utilized for the last 30 years. I always like to use the example of the kids who lift in front of the mirror to look pretty are generally not as strong as they look. We had a state champ a couple of years ago that not many gave odds of that ever happening, a good part of his success was because he was stronger than the kids he wrestled, including the ones that looked like they just walked off of a bodybuilding stage.

[Bearhugger]

Yes they may request the class and it is for the whole year. Football players are given first priority.

Is the weight room open and supervised AFTER school for the football players to lift more?

Yes, its open after schools and supervised. Most non football players will not go because they don't feel like they are welcome.

Regarding the "not welcome" aspect, that was how it was when I was in high school over 30 years ago. Not much changes around here does it.

[Bearhugger]

Just like any program their are many variables when it comes to a successful strength program. It seems that there are more experts in strength training than people to train. Having vast experience in the field it's always good to not judge a book by its cover. A lot of the times the best builtlooking kids are not as strong as a well trained strength athlete. Strength is deceiving. I don't know the Lehigh coach that used to be there but I do know the one that has been there for the last 7 or 8 years. The advice that was given is the same as I have utilized for the last 30 years. I always like to use the example of the kids who lift in front of the mirror to look pretty are generally not as strong as they look. We had a state champ a couple of years ago that not many gave odds of that ever happening, a good part of his success was because he was stronger than the kids he wrestled, including the ones that looked like they just walked off of a bodybuilding stage.

I have had numerous discussions with the father of a very successful wrestler. His son lifts. The approach to strength training is predominantly bench, squat, deadlift and pullups. They mix in a few other exercises. The real key for anybody is being consistent in visiting the weight room and keeping it simple.

Using last season as an example:

1. In my opinion, the two best wrestling schools were Independence and Parkersburg South. Anybody can dispute my opinion.

2. In my opinion, the strongest kid on each team would be Noah Adams and Justin Allman. Anybody can dispute my opinion.

3. When everybody went to NHSCA Nationals, Independence's top performer was Adams. South's top performers were Allman and Haga. These are facts.

The rule of thumb I would be using is viewing a wrestling match as throwing around one's body weight equivalent for 6 minutes.

Using 220 as an example. How many times can a given 220 pound wrestler squat 220 pounds? How many times can they bench press 220 pounds?

Nothing in wrestling is of a "one rep" nature.

[Bearhugger]

I am not familiar with the rules as to what is allowed and what is not allowed.

So to continue this discussion is a solution oriented manner, I shall say this.

1. Talk to the principal. Get permission to access the mat room at the school.

2. Don't have the coach involved. Find somebody else to "hold the key".

3. Lets the kids wrestle. Two kids down in the smallest town wrestling with each other year round will improve their game.

4. Does somebody have a big room in their house? It might not be good for takedowns, but they could wrestle down on the floor and work on their riding, tilts, pinning, and escapes.

The bottom line is that your kid needs at least one other kid and a safe surface to wrestle on. If you got this, then improvements can be made. You do not need to spend $1,200 to send your kid to Fargo to go 0-2 to improve.

Across the board, the kids of West Virginia are getting beat in the weight room when it comes to succeeding in these larger out of state tournaments.

If your kid cannot throw around the iron equivalent of his body weight numerous times(160 pound kid squatting 160 pounds 20+ reps), then learning 1,000 holds will not help much.

i agree with every statement. Especially the 1200$ fargo trip. You could hit a super gold medal training camp and wrestle some tough PA competition for 10 days straight for less. If you are good enough to go battle out 12 matches than that is one thing, but, if you are still learning I say spend the money on a good camp!

Depending on where the money is coming from, I say spend the money on some wrestling specific training equipment that can be used every day, by every wrestler, for every year going forward. Send Wrestler X to Fargo. Spend $1,200 for him to go and finish 0-2. Or, spend the money for something for the wrestling room that an annual squad of 30 wrestlers can use daily for 3-4 months. Then use it again every season.

[wvnorth]

The rules and liabilities are the key factors. I just don't see how a kid getting hurt in a season game or match differs from a June practice. If it benefitted the right people it would already be happening. My point was simple. The kids that can't participate in clubs or national tourneys could really improve the sport as a whole if the schools or commissions permitted training through the off season. The basketball court is used for everything year round, what is the wrestling room used for between March and November? Open it up!!!

[Scar73]

In my experience, two people that are of equal skill and talent go head to head....the physically stronger kid wins. Period.

However, there is something to be said about mental tougness/stability. All other things equal...the wrestler with good mental toughness could surprise a lot of wrestlers/spectators. Just a lil food for thought

[wvnorth]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjzVVT8JTeM&sns

[coach_williams]

I just don't see how a kid getting hurt in a season game or match differs from a June practice.

I could be wrong here, but I think the insurance that covers wrestlers during season only applies to the WVSSAC defined season dates. I am pretty sure that off-season injuries must be covered by parental/guardian insurance. It would be as simple as getting the parent/guardian to sign a release saying that they will not hold the school/coach responsible for injuries, but there are still some schools that would not allow it as it is easier to just say no than to put a little effort into making it happen.

[Matofficial]

The thing about going to out of season tournaments like Fargo and others is your wrestler is exposed to the best wrestlers. Over the years we have had wrestlers lose a close match because they were not use to the level of wrestlers where as our opponents were exposed to that type of wrestling either dailey or every weekend.