Should Forfeits count?

[coach999]

I know some coaches don't count forfeits aa wins for their wrestlers. My opinion is if most teams do, then your handicapping your wrestlers in many ways. Also, if the coach counts the team points from a forfeit, then the win needs to be attributed to the wrestler as well. It hurts the wrestlers all time wins, season wins, etc. anybody else have an opinion?

[guard0544]

Obviously they have to count in regards to team scores in settings where teams are competing against each other.

However, in regards to individual records, one simply has to answer the question "Who did you wrestle?" If there answer is no one, then you did not win a match. You cannot really win unless there is someone competing against you. Without competition, there is no real victory.

A lot of schools do count them. I dont have a problem with that. Its just not for me.

[mscoach26]

I did count them, the wrestler still had to show up, make weight and report to the mat. However, we would always move up if possible to get a match or even try to wrestle an exhibition. Another reason why we avoided dual and tris. No point in showing up to get two forfeits as sometimes happened. We leaned more towards bracketed or especially pool type tournaments. My kids almost always got over 40 actual matches each year excluding forfeits.

[aaacoach33]

If you get your hand raised it's a win

[guard0544]

If you get your hand raised it's a win

In regards to team scores it is. I doubt there is anything official in regards to individual records. I still go back to...who did you wrestle? If the answer is nobody....well...

[coach_williams]

If you get your hand raised it's a win

In regards to team scores it is. I doubt there is anything official in regards to individual records. I still go back to...who did you wrestle? If the answer is nobody....well...

How could it possibly count for the team if it doesn't count for the wrestler? You are saying that the team can claim points off of a match the wrestler did not win. That makes no sense. It has to count as a win for the wrestler for it to contribute to team points.

[coach999]

I think you stated it perfectly! If the points count for the team then the wrestler has to be given the victory. The only person this affects is the wrestler, whose coach chooses not to attribute a win to their record. Handicaps them, pertaining to seedings, career achievements, school achievements vs others whose records have forfeits included, etc. Just makes no sense to me.

[guard0544]

If you get your hand raised it's a win

In regards to team scores it is. I doubt there is anything official in regards to individual records. I still go back to...who did you wrestle? If the answer is nobody....well...

How could it possibly count for the team if it doesn't count for the wrestler? You are saying that the team can claim points off of a match the wrestler did not win. That makes no sense. It has to count as a win for the wrestler for it to contribute to team points.

Its rather simple. In a Team vs. Team competition the goal is to produce the best team across all of the slotted weight classes. If you fail to produce a wrestler for one or more of the weight classes that makes your team collectively weaker, and rightfully the other team gets 6 points for the forfeit. To do otherwise would allow a team with a single wrestler to win every dual they have if that one wrestler is a great one. In a team vs. team situation, that would be a silly result. However, those same dynamics are not at play in a head to head match up of individual wrestlers.

In the end, it doesn't really matter. Take all the "wins" from forfeits you want. But I'd wager most wrestlers who end up with a record padded with 10+ forfeits throughout the season...in their own mind, keep track of how many legit wins they have and how many were forfeits...even if they prefer to tell their buddies about the padded records.

[coach_williams]

Its rather simple. In a Team vs. Team competition the goal is to produce the best team across all of the slotted weight classes. If you fail to produce a wrestler for one or more of the weight classes that makes your team collectively weaker, and rightfully the other team gets 6 points for the forfeit. To do otherwise would allow a team with a single wrestler to win every dual they have if that one wrestler is a great one. In a team vs. team situation, that would be a silly result. However, those same dynamics are not at play in a head to head match up of individual wrestlers.

In the end, it doesn't really matter. Take all the "wins" from forfeits you want. But I'd wager most wrestlers who end up with a record padded with 10+ forfeits throughout the season...in their own mind, keep track of how many legit wins they have and how many were forfeits...even if they prefer to tell their buddies about the padded records.

Here is the flaw in your theory. If a team knew that their wrestler was inferior to another wrestler, they could simply pull their wrestler and give the better wrestler a forfeit, resulting in the better wrestler having a lower number of wins. In an 8 team dual all teams could simply pull their wrestler from his weight class during their dual with his team and leave him with a 0-0 record for the meet while another wrestler with perhaps a 3-4 record or 5-2 record would get credited with winning his weight class at the meet.

Imagine Noah Adams finishing the season with a 0-0 record because everyone just assumed he would beat their wrestler and they gave him a forfeit rather than let him beat up on their wrestler. Noah Adams...the worst 195 in WV because he didn't win a single match.

[guard0544]

Its rather simple. In a Team vs. Team competition the goal is to produce the best team across all of the slotted weight classes. If you fail to produce a wrestler for one or more of the weight classes that makes your team collectively weaker, and rightfully the other team gets 6 points for the forfeit. To do otherwise would allow a team with a single wrestler to win every dual they have if that one wrestler is a great one. In a team vs. team situation, that would be a silly result. However, those same dynamics are not at play in a head to head match up of individual wrestlers.

In the end, it doesn't really matter. Take all the "wins" from forfeits you want. But I'd wager most wrestlers who end up with a record padded with 10+ forfeits throughout the season...in their own mind, keep track of how many legit wins they have and how many were forfeits...even if they prefer to tell their buddies about the padded records.

Here is the flaw in your theory. If a team knew that their wrestler was inferior to another wrestler, they could simply pull their wrestler and give the better wrestler a forfeit, resulting in the better wrestler having a lower number of wins. In an 8 team dual all teams could simply pull their wrestler from his weight class during their dual with his team and leave him with a 0-0 record for the meet while another wrestler with perhaps a 3-4 record or 5-2 record would get credited with winning his weight class at the meet.

Imagine Noah Adams finishing the season with a 0-0 record because everyone just assumed he would beat their wrestler and they gave him a forfeit rather than let him beat up on their wrestler. Noah Adams...the worst 195 in WV because he didn't win a single match.

Not much of a flaw. In such a dual tournament they could count forfeits to help determine individual class champs if they want. I was just saying I find it silly that forfeits are counted as wins on peoples records.

[Gator]

If Noah Adams came into the state tournament with a record of 48-0 and everyone forfeited to him, he would be standing at the top of the podium with a record of 52-0. So forfeits count at the state tournament, why wouldn't they count any other time?

[guard0544]

If Noah Adams came into the state tournament with a record of 48-0 and everyone forfeited to him, he would be standing at the top of the podium with a record of 52-0. So forfeits count at the state tournament, why wouldn't they count any other time?

What if he came into the state tournament and there were no other wrestlers in his weight class? Just one man and the rest are empty slots. He would not get credit for 4 wins because there were no opponents.

Only if there were actual opponents on paper and they opted to forfeit to him would he get credit for the wins.

[Gator]

If Noah Adams came into the state tournament with a record of 48-0 and everyone forfeited to him, he would be standing at the top of the podium with a record of 52-0. So forfeits count at the state tournament, why wouldn't they count any other time?

What if he came into the state tournament and there were no other wrestlers in his weight class? Just one man and the rest are empty slots. He would not get credit for 4 wins because there were no opponents.

Only if there were actual opponents on paper and they opted to forfeit to him would he get credit for the wins.

Guard, that may be a question for Bill Archer. I'm guessing that if he went out on the mat ready to wrestle and got his hand lifted, it's a win and it would count as a win on his record. I've guessed many times and been wrong though.

[guard0544]

If Noah Adams came into the state tournament with a record of 48-0 and everyone forfeited to him, he would be standing at the top of the podium with a record of 52-0. So forfeits count at the state tournament, why wouldn't they count any other time?

What if he came into the state tournament and there were no other wrestlers in his weight class? Just one man and the rest are empty slots. He would not get credit for 4 wins because there were no opponents.

Only if there were actual opponents on paper and they opted to forfeit to him would he get credit for the wins.

Guard, that may be a question for Bill Archer. I'm guessing that if he went out on the mat ready to wrestle and got his hand lifted, it's a win and it would count as a win on his record. I've guessed many times and been wrong though.

I'm certainly no authority on it...but I think it would be called a Bye and would not count on the record.

[voltair]

Here is what the rule book states on byes and forfeits. There shall be no byes after the first round of competition. Rule 9-2 ART1A For each match won by default, disqualification, fall or forfeit, six points shall be added to the team's total. In Tournament a forfeit is awarded 2pt. Notice the phrase each match won by... So according to the NFHS rule book it is considered a win and points are awarded for the team.

[guard0544]

Here is what the rule book states on byes and forfeits. There shall be no byes after the first round of competition. Rule 9-2 ART1A For each match won by default, disqualification, fall or forfeit, six points shall be added to the team's total. In Tournament a forfeit is awarded 2pt. Notice the phrase each match won by... So according to the NFHS rule book it is considered a win and points are awarded for the team.

Notice the phrase "each match won by..." I'm no expert on the rules...but I believe that to be speaking to situations where there IS A MATCH slated, wrestler A is paired against wrestler B, and one of the wrestlers forfeits the match to the other wrestler. If someone receives a Bye...there is no "match"....and no win.

[mscoach20]

This has taken a sour turn. A forfeit is a match. If you take 5 forfeits in a day and actually wrestle another, you've broken the rule. I have no idea why this is a conversation. A forfeit is no different than an injury default. You count it as a win. That simple. In fact, I know no coaches that take this "high road" of "only matches we actually wrestle".

[guard0544]

This has taken a sour turn. A forfeit is a match. If you take 5 forfeits in a day and actually wrestle another, you've broken the rule. I have no idea why this is a conversation. A forfeit is no different than an injury default. You count it as a win. That simple. In fact, I know no coaches that take this "high road" of "only matches we actually wrestle".

In regards to the 5 matches limit, the last time I checked Forfeits do not count as matches.

[Panther_coach]

Forfeits are counted in the five match rule ( at least up until I retired). Several times I ran into events out of state where if we had a kid reach his five match limit - ex.lose first match then fight all the way back in a 16 man they had to stop wrestling. In some states (we ran into this a lot in the Cinn. area and also in Dearborn, IL) they try to run 16 man brackets in a single day and if the situation comes up they flip a coin for third or something. Bad way to do business in my opinion! We did get around it once though in a holiday tournament at Newport, KY - by the time we got to that last match it was after midnight so technically the next day and the refs let them wrestle - LOL! I counted them on individuals records because in my opinion if the kid did the work to make weight, got to the event and walked out on the mat it was no different than if the other guy injury defaulted or got DQ'ed.

[mscoach20]

This has taken a sour turn. A forfeit is a match. If you take 5 forfeits in a day and actually wrestle another, you've broken the rule. I have no idea why this is a conversation. A forfeit is no different than an injury default. You count it as a win. That simple. In fact, I know no coaches that take this "high road" of "only matches we actually wrestle".

In regards to the 5 matches limit, the last time I checked Forfeits do not count as matches.

They absolutely do.

[Sally]

I believe 2 or 3 years ago the NFHS changed the ruling on forfeits counting against your 5 matches in a day rule.
Example from years previous to this rule: Wrestler A is in a 1 day dual tournament and is only allowed to wrestle 5 times. If wrestler A gets 4 forfeits and wrestles to win his 5th match that day he cannot wrestle an "exhibition match" for mat time.

Example for current season and I believe last season: Wrestler A is in this same tournament and gets 4 forfeits and wrestles 1 actual match. His coach is now allowed to find an exhibition match with a weight class above or below his wrestler.

Basically, forfeits do not count against your 5 matches in 1 day total. I like the new rule.

In another thread Coach Archer responded via Doc Miller that there are no byes in the state tournament. I believe the thread was concerning low numbers in certain weight classes in AAA.

As far as Forfeits counting as wins, why not reward your kid. Good wrestlers want to wrestle and they know the quality of their wins and losses. If the coach chooses not to count forfeits as wins, he's still the head coach and he makes the rules for his team. Just my opinion. Now, let us debate counting exhibition matches on the wrestler's record!

[guard0544]

This has taken a sour turn. A forfeit is a match. If you take 5 forfeits in a day and actually wrestle another, you've broken the rule. I have no idea why this is a conversation. A forfeit is no different than an injury default. You count it as a win. That simple. In fact, I know no coaches that take this "high road" of "only matches we actually wrestle".

In regards to the 5 matches limit, the last time I checked Forfeits do not count as matches.

They absolutely do.

"Only the Sith deal in absolutes." - Obi-Wan
The rule may have changed a couple years ago.

[aaacoach33]

If a football team forfeits does it count as a win?

[aacoach21]

Well in most tournaments records hold little weight usually at the seed regional seed meetings I have been to it is head to head then common aponent then state placement then regional placement then your record so if your want a big blew up record that's fine seen it a few times one in particular team came in everyone had over 40 wins and just a few loses but none of us had wrestled them or saw them anywhere the hole season and their coaches was like but they have 40 wins and no losses had they got seeded by their record they would have all been first seed and out of 14 kids 2 placed I think 3 and 4th the quailfy for state

[aacoach21]

In my option counting forfeits is like handing out particapation trophies

[coach_williams]

I think I have a resolution here. In order to resolve any future complaints about wrestlers getting credit for forfeits, any team that does not have a full roster with every weight class filled is barred from competition. It is not fair to penalize a wrestler who practiced hard all week, made weight and showed up to the meet because some other wrestler didn't make weight or because a team/coach didn't fill their roster. Penalize the team that showed up with half a team. Let them bear the responsibility.

Am I serious? No. I would never support barring wrestlers from competing, but I think it is outright stupid to fight over a kid getting credit for a win from a forfeit when it is not his fault that a team showed up with 4 wrestlers or the wrestler in his weight bracket was not disciplined enough to not eat a box of donuts the night before the meet.

[aacoach21]

So here's a question if a kid doesn't make wait and the team has to forfeit that class then that kids should get a loss by that same standard for not making weight or if he got injured that should be losses against him

[coach_williams]

So here's a question if a kid doesn't make wait and the team has to forfeit that class then that kids should get a loss by that same standard for not making weight or if he got injured that should be losses against him

If he doesn't make weight, yes. Injuries can not be controlled, so no.

[aaacoach33]

Forfeits should and will count as wins in wrestling forever. Just like they do in every other sport in the world. If the coach doesn't want to give one of his wrestlers credit for a win for a forfeit, then don't send him out to get his hand raised for the team and the six points. Take a double forfeit. All these coaches want to talk about forfeits not counting for the kid but they sure do want that six points. Is that like getting a participation trophy?

[aacoach70]

With all due respect to those coaches who may believe otherwise, forfeits do count as wins on an individual's record and to not count it as such only penalizes your own kids unnecessarily. The team earned the points by having him make weight and ready to compete. At a seeding meeting, it is very easy for a coach to mention if a kid has x number of forfeits. Win-loss record is usually not one of the first few criteria for seeding anyway. Byes are totally different. Byes do not count as wins. They are merely there to indicate the absence of a wrestler in a bracket tournament. A bye is not associated with any particular team. As far as assigning losses to a wrestler who doesn't make weight, that might sound like it's deserved, you might want to wring his neck, but crediting him with losses is just spiteful. If a kid is not considered as being "in" the meet, he can't receive a loss. Would he automatically be given two losses at a double-elimination tournament? In a dual, you'd credit him with a loss if the other team had a wrestler,.. then perhaps not if the other team was also forfeiting that weight? Sounds kind of ridiculous. Unfortunately, I think it may be more likely that an injured wrestler who defaults a match would be credited with a loss. At least in that instance, there were two opponents, both "in" the meet based on weigh-in, who started a bout in which one wrestler wins and the other loses. Thankfully, these default matches don't happen every day, but to answer the original question: yes, forfeits do count as wins.