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Bearhugger wrote:

aaacoach33 wrote:

Bearhugger wrote:

The Cameron Invitational took the chance. No pigtails were needed. Few byes and 9 weight classes had zero byes. 22 teams in a 16 team bracket.

To address your concerns:

1. A new team wants in. This takes the tournament above 32 teams. You ask the coach "are you ok with your unseeded kids wrestling in pigtails?" If he says no, then tell him he cannot come whereas you already have 32 teams. If he wants in bad enough, let him accept under the required terms.

You know it takes two kids to wrestle a pigtail. What if the team that wants in agrees? Which one of the other teams do you ask?

Being the uninformed idiot that I am, I do not know how far down any tournament seeds their wrestlers. To answer your question, lets say they only seed the top 16 and then pull everybody else's name out of a hat. Whoevers name gets pulled out last, gets thrown in the pigtail. I would structure it so that pigtail match winners then hit the lower seeded wrestlers first and not the top seeded wrestlers.


The number one question that should be asked is "do you want excess byes or not?" To reduce byes, increase teams. Increased teams could lead to a few pigtails. Going back to the recent Cameron example. There were fewer byes, no pigtails and despite 22 teams, it still equated to a 16 team bracket. Any other problems that may have existed is an independent issue.


At the National Guard Duals, it was a two day, 28 team event. There were some wrestlers that only got 4 matches. Again, as coaches, wrestlers, parents, fans, tournament directors, or an uniformed idiot like me......................what do we want? Matches or byes? Make money at the gate or make MORE money at the gate. Barnburner matches starting in the quarterfinals or only barnburner matches in the finals.

I would say that a coach that doesn't want a few pigtails is indirectly saying he wants more byes.

But those original 32 teams entered that tournament with the understanding that there wouldn’t be pigtails. Now you’re saying they should just change the rules after the original teams entered under a certain set of understanding?

As I don’t think this needs to be in the forum. For the most part winners choice is always ran well. However, I do know they make promises to teams about letting them in and then later on say “oh we don’t have any room for you sorry” even know they promised a spot. But I also know what it takes to run a tourney and I understand I’m just trying to figure out bearhuggers point. It’s pretty well ran minus that AD he likes to the stir the pot sometimes too. But Fairmont senior does an outstanding job at hosting this tourney. And I Can’t wait for this year!

I don't see what the problem is here. Bearhugger did not say that the people who run Winner's Choice (and other tournaments) don't know what they are doing. He did not say he wants to run it. He made suggestions concerning possibly improving that tournament (and others) to allow for potentially increased participation and revenue. Then, he backed up his comments with actual data that suggests his plan might work.

Whether or not there were pigtails at the Cameron tournament is irrelevant. His idea specifically calls for pigtails where necessary. Further, if teams were aware before signing up that the plan was to allow more teams than bracket slots due to the near certainty (as shown by the number of byes in previous years) of many teams having incomplete rosters - and that there was the possibility of a pigtail if necessary - that would seem to be fair.

I'm not necessarily for or against the idea. I am against shooting down an idea simply because that's not that way it has always been done or because you don't like the person who gives voice to the idea. I believe it is a good thing to make arguments both for and against an idea if you focus on the pros and cons of the idea itself. If the focus of your comments is to personally attack someone, then it becomes clear you do not have anything relevant to say about the actual topic at issue.

Underdog3382 wrote:I don't see what the problem is here. Bearhugger did not say that the people who run Winner's Choice (and other tournaments) don't know what they are doing. He did not say he wants to run it. He made suggestions concerning possibly improving that tournament (and others) to allow for potentially increased participation and revenue. Then, he backed up his comments with actual data that suggests his plan might work.

Whether or not there were pigtails at the Cameron tournament is irrelevant. His idea specifically calls for pigtails where necessary. Further, if teams were aware before signing up that the plan was to allow more teams than bracket slots due to the near certainty (as shown by the number of byes in previous years) of many teams having incomplete rosters - and that there was the possibility of a pigtail if necessary - that would seem to be fair.

I'm not necessarily for or against the idea. I am against shooting down an idea simply because that's not that way it has always been done or because you don't like the person who gives voice to the idea. I believe it is a good thing to make arguments both for and against an idea if you focus on the pros and cons of the idea itself. If the focus of your comments is to personally attack someone, then it becomes clear you do not have anything relevant to say about the actual topic at issue.

His initial post was insinuative and somewhat accusatory... as if FSHS was somehow blackballing MHS from attending the tournament. He has no idea what discussions occurred between FSHS and MHS. Secondly, while trying to back his argument, he stated that the Cameron tournament had no pigtails. While that was an expertly run tournament, it DID have pigtails. Others who have commented here obviously took his initial and follow up posts as I did. It's not the first time he has attempted to stir the pot a bit on this board. Winners Choice is one of the most difficult and well run tournaments in the state... though no tournament is perfect. When it comes to trying to better the current state of wrestling in WV, I think many would agree there are more pressing issues to focus on and complain about.

matcoach90 wrote:There were pigtails at Cameron. I was there, so I should know. Our 152 wrestled in one... just more misinformation from someone trying to stir the pot. Learn before you post. Better yet, run a tournament and gain some experience before you post.

I stand corrected on the "no pigtails" aspect of the Cameron Tournament. They were not displayed in the brackets.

I do not stand corrected on:

1. Cameron had 9 weight classes without byes which meant more matches.

2. Cameron had great match ups that was enhanced because of the number of teams brought in.

I do not need to run a tournament in order to identify the number of byes in each weight class. I know how to count. I do not need to run a tournament in order to see that the trend of significant byes happens each year. I can read.

I am sure all of the readers can count and read. I provided two years of WC history. I am sure it will be the same thing Sunday.

Everybody can decide what they want. Better competition, better tournaments or more byes.

I did drop in on a 16 bracket tournament last season. Most of the weight classes had 4-5 wrestlers. That is 11 to 12 byes.

I had an individual of significant wrestling position private message me. He talked like Cameron had its share of challenges "off the mat". I contacted a coach that was there and he said it went smooth. I contacted another head coach and asked "would you like to be in the Winner's Choice even if it meant 4-5 of your wrestlers had to start in pigtails". He said he would like to have his team in the WC this weekend.

Opinions vary.

The uneducated, uninformed non-tournament running idiot is done with this discussion topic until Sunday.

All I ask for is that they have some slaw for the BBQs this year.

There are the doers and there are the “Sunday” morning QBs

And there are your winners and losers aacoach33!
BearHugger suggested a possible improvement to a great tournament, and improve other up and coming tourneys!
But of course you always have those "Monday Managers" remind me of the jerks in Washington!
Our country is in a mess for the same reason aacoach33!
Too much whining and not enough fixing!
I guess changing a tournament is like drug testing welfare recipients, regardless of how much it would improve the overall situation? It won't be done, because someone may be left out.

Sorry for the rant, but I'm a Fan of Bearhugger, Yes he may step on some egos, trip over some tradition, and stir the pot a little.
Keep it up Bearhugger! I love watching the snow melt

rodneyjwv wrote:And there are your winners and losers aacoach33!
BearHugger suggested a possible improvement to a great tournament, and improve other up and coming tourneys!
But of course you always have those "Monday Managers" remind me of the jerks in Washington!
Our country is in a mess for the same reason aacoach33!
Too much whining and not enough fixing!
I guess changing a tournament is like drug testing welfare recipients, regardless of how much it would improve the overall situation? It won't be done, because someone may be left out.

Sorry for the rant, but I'm a Fan of Bearhugger, Yes he may step on some egos, trip over some tradition, and stir the pot a little.
Keep it up Bearhugger! I love watching the snow melt

Please dont bring your politics into a wrestling discussion!

Lloyd Christmas wrote:

rodneyjwv wrote:And there are your winners and losers aacoach33!
BearHugger suggested a possible improvement to a great tournament, and improve other up and coming tourneys!
But of course you always have those "Monday Managers" remind me of the jerks in Washington!
Our country is in a mess for the same reason aacoach33!
Too much whining and not enough fixing!
I guess changing a tournament is like drug testing welfare recipients, regardless of how much it would improve the overall situation? It won't be done, because someone may be left out.

Sorry for the rant, but I'm a Fan of Bearhugger, Yes he may step on some egos, trip over some tradition, and stir the pot a little.
Keep it up Bearhugger! I love watching the snow melt

Please dont bring your politics into a wrestling discussion!

Keep doing what you do Bearhugger!! Some people are too blind to see you love WV wrestling and really do try to improve it and promote it even if it does hurt some soft feelings.

Bearhugger for President 2024!! (Because my 2020 vote is already decided!)

Lloyd Christmas not to sure what your talking about. I referenced Washington DC, never mentioned a party, nor a political party's members names.
They only way you could find my post political is if you yourself read it with a political bias! I compared changing a tournament to getting legislation through Washington.
Do we need a safe space for you Lloyd? Do comparisons make you uncomfortable? If so, then get in line. My New Years resolution was to ignore as many snowflakes as possible. Especially the ones who get uncomfortable reading a public forum.

rodneyjwv wrote:Lloyd Christmas not to sure what your talking about. I referenced Washington DC, never mentioned a party, nor a political party's members names.
They only way you could find my post political is if you yourself read it with a political bias! I compared changing a tournament to getting legislation through Washington.
Do we need a safe space for you Lloyd? Do comparisons make you uncomfortable? If so, then get in line. My New Years resolution was to ignore as many snowflakes as possible. Especially the ones who get uncomfortable reading a public forum.

This is a public WRESTLING forum! No one wants to hear about Washington. Lady, saying anything about legislation in DC is obviously political. Since you insist on being political please tell us again how comparing running the Winners Choice should be compared to drug testing welfare recipients. I think you are a prime example why people should have to take an IQ test before voting.

Ok Lloyd I'll take you up on that one! I have been tested, dare to compare? Before you put your foot in your mouth, I scored in the upper 1-2% of all people taking the ASVAB in 1985, GT scores in the 130s. I've only had 30 years to build on my very solid foundational knowledge.
of course your gonna need tested also.
You can add a physical fitness test also Lloyd, I'm not 18 anymore but I can still pass the Army's PT test with flying colors.

I'm sorry, not sorry if my references to drug testing welfare recipients made you uncomfortable. It was meant to be an uncomfortable, I'm uncomfortable every time I listen to the news, guess what, I turn it off. So hope I made it clear enough for you.

Btw it was changing the current structure of the winners choice to accept more than 32 teams was compared to getting a law where welfare recipients to pass a drug test.

rodneyjwv wrote:Ok Lloyd I'll take you up on that one! I have been tested, dare to compare? Before you put your foot in your mouth, I scored in the upper 1-2% of all people taking the ASVAB in 1985, GT scores in the 130s. I've only had 30 years to build on my very solid foundational knowledge.
of course your gonna need tested also.
You can add a physical fitness test also Lloyd, I'm not 18 anymore but I can still pass the Army's PT test with flying colors.

I'm sorry, not sorry if my references to drug testing welfare recipients made you uncomfortable. It was meant to be an uncomfortable, I'm uncomfortable every time I listen to the news, guess what, I turn it off. So hope I made it clear enough for you.

Btw it was changing the current structure of the winners choice to accept more than 32 teams was compared to getting a law where welfare recipients to pass a drug test.

Well since you are real smart can you please explain how exactly accepting more than 32 teams at the winners choice has ANYTHING to do with welfare recipients?

By the way my parents ran the winners choice, many regionals, and conference tournaments for 25 years. I know a thing or two about running a tournament. I would like to know EXACTLY how the tournament could be improved. Feel free to use your superior test scores and ability to pass PT tests to help you be specific on how you would run the tournament!

I dont blame you

Should we be looking out for anyone in a red-hooded, sweatshirt at Winner's Choice?

KDunbar wrote:Should we be looking out for anyone in a red-hooded, sweatshirt at Winner's Choice?

Great question

I don't wear hoodies to public events, plus the battle of wits was over before it started.

Lloyd if you can't understand how adding wrestlers to teams with only 5-6 wrestlers makes a better tournament, with less byes. You seem to think its ok as is, well tell that to the 106 wrestlers who's bracket sports 12-13 byes out of 32 slots!

What you don't get Lloyd, we never said Winners Choice was a bad tournament, all Bearhugger said and shown with awesome research was if you added teams the byes would go away in turn making it a better tournament for the wrestlers now and moving forward!

I will say it again Lloyd, you seem not to hear what I say. Winners Choice is one of the BEST tournaments in the State of WV!!!
I hope you get it now! Change is not always bad, not one time have I bashed this tournament, I simply agreed with Bearhugger

Bearhugger is treated like our President, half the readers hate him just because he speaks his mind, the other half agree with him but feel obligated not to stir the pot as he does. I myself, stir baby stir?

Covfefe

This peeing match is awesome.

Moderators... could you please clean this site up. It’s turning into a cross between middle schoolers dissing each other and old lady’s bickering. So much for wrestling discussion.

MarxaTKE wrote:Bearhugger,
Obviously you have never run a tournament before, you can't "just fit a team in" when you are in a 32 team format. Additionally, comment on something you have knowledge of..... Moorefield was advised of a full field when they requested entry several months ago. Check around before you make you uneducated and unfounded comments.

Just interested in the facts. 32 teams were supposedly registered (not saying there weren't, just could never find the initial list of 32). Only 29 teams showed up (Fairmont Senior wrestled their B Team as the 30th team). Who were the three teams that paid admission but had to cancel out at the last minute? Simple question, nothing implied.

KDunbar wrote:

MarxaTKE wrote:Bearhugger,
Obviously you have never run a tournament before, you can't "just fit a team in" when you are in a 32 team format. Additionally, comment on something you have knowledge of..... Moorefield was advised of a full field when they requested entry several months ago. Check around before you make you uneducated and unfounded comments.

Just interested in the facts. 32 teams were supposedly registered (not saying there weren't, just could never find the initial list of 32). Only 29 teams showed up (Fairmont Senior wrestled their B Team as the 30th team). Who were the three teams that paid admission but had to cancel out at the last minute? Simple question, nothing implied.

Hedgesville has been a routine WC attending team that did not attend. I did not confirm their schedule.

Per the team's posted schedule, Spring Valley and Greenbrier East were scheduled but didn't attend.

Based on my research, both Spring Valley and Hedgesville are forfeiting many weight classes.

Of course the "word on the street" was available for all three team's reasons for not attending.