Rules and situations

[Matofficial]

Just asking for opinions here. If a coach physically contacts an official it is according to the rule book will be ejected. What about when the referee does the same to a coach. Is there a penalty? Should there be ? How about when an official makes such poor judgment a wrestler who says the f word because of a nose bleed to himself that he is ejected for flagrant misconduct? Unsportsmanlike yes but flagrant? These kind of pathetic calls could cause a riot! This a sport of passion and high energy. Often times people make poor decisions so shouldn’t there be a more clear picture of a what is allowed and what not.

[TheBoxer]

Just asking for opinions here. If a coach physically contacts an official it is according to the rule book will be ejected. What about when the referee does the same to a coach. Is there a penalty? Should there be ? How about when an official makes such poor judgment a wrestler who says the f word because of a nose bleed to himself that he is ejected for flagrant misconduct? Unsportsmanlike yes but flagrant? These kind of pathetic calls could cause a riot! This a sport of passion and high energy. Often times people make poor decisions so shouldn’t there be a more clear picture of a what is allowed and what not.

While i cant comment on the situation with the bloody nose, if it really is as you describe, i find it very odd that it is Misconduct but a coach celebrating on the mat while the opponent is getting carted off in a stretcher isn't even a team point. Then to have the audacity to have a parent, from a different team, thrown out because they called that coach out?! Bad Form!

I know this isn't a reflection on the wrestler, or the fans from Greenbrier West, just on the coach with his priorities very skewed in the wrong direction.

[Doyablameme?]

The decision to DQ the 160 pounder n question was one of the worst decisions I have EVER seen… EVER. My guess is that in retrospect even the official in question might acknowledge such.

[Matofficial]

Do you think ? Lol However I am putting doubt on the acknowledgement.

[aacoach126]

As someone who was an official and is now a coach, I've known for a long time that cursing on the mat for any reason is ejection-worthy. This was the case when I wrestled, the idea was reinforced when I did my training as an official, and coaches are informed of this as well. This is not a new idea.

Do all officials enforce the rule with the same consistency? Probably not.

[Doyablameme?]

As someone who was an official and is now a coach, I've known for a long time that cursing on the mat for any reason is ejection-worthy. This was the case when I wrestled, the idea was reinforced when I did my training as an official, and coaches are informed of this as well. This is not a new idea.

Do all officials enforce the rule with the same consistency? Probably not.

I was there, watched the entire match ( what there was of it), heard the cuss word and given the totality of the circumstances involved this in NO way was cause for a DQ.
Call the kid aside, penalize the kid, but removing him from the State Championship finals was just wrong. The kid was frustrated that he had more blood on his right leg that had not been removed during the last blood- time clean up. Shouldn’t have said it for sure but ending the match for that was poor judgement…

BTW I was sitting in the front , saw it all heard it all. One more thing, did anyone else notice that the first thing the official did upon hearing the swear word was penalize the south kid 1 point as the kid got up from the down position to walk back to his corner to have the blood removed. Then the ref DQd him! After he was penalized. ( correct me if I am wrong on this).

The DQ came as total shock to both kids and both coaching staffs. I have a copy of the rule book and this did not meet the criteria for a flagrant DQ especially in the finals ( which yes should have been a factor in the decision) . Bottom line is , you can’t end a championship finals match for what transpired out there during this match.

[ncref]

Contact, in the manner you are alluding to, with an official is most certainly flagrant misconduct. In some states it is a high level misdemeanor or felony. Most states considered sports officials in the same light as school employees under the law when it comes to aggravating circumstances for assault. I am not talking about incidental contact but it seems you are alluding to more than that.

Regarding the conduct of the student athletes, there is usually a zero tolerance policy for foul language, regardless.of the circumstances. This is usually covered in clinics and coaches training.

If you are excusing the actions of a student athlete based your perception of the correctness of a call, you are not only missing the point of teaching our young men/women some valuable life lessons but you are also part of the problem.

The important lesson is that there are a lot of things in life that won't go your way more unfair, and as an adult you are going to have to deal with it in a constructive manner and not lose your cool.

[mscoach4]

As someone who was an official and is now a coach, I've known for a long time that cursing on the mat for any reason is ejection-worthy. This was the case when I wrestled, the idea was reinforced when I did my training as an official, and coaches are informed of this as well. This is not a new idea.

Do all officials enforce the rule with the same consistency? Probably not.

So if this is common knowledge among coaches and officials why is it not included on the list of violations that constitute FMC? A rule with such drastic penalties should be Very clearly defined and not left up to an official's judgement. That open's up the official to being accused to having a bias in such situations. Their job is tough enough without having to make those type of calls.

[aacoach61]

I don’t have a dog in this hunt, but I do have a comment on the final official bracket. I haven’t coached in a state finals match for over a dozen years, but I still follow the sport closely.

Being disqualified in a state finals match is a harsh penalty and those involved will unfortunately have to live with the ramifications. But to have the official bracket essentially rewritten to show “forfeit” in the prior three matches that were won fair and square smacks of rewriting history. Take the team points away but don’t censor the actual scores from the three wins prior to the finals.

That rule needs to be changed. It’s not as if a team used an ineligible athlete like in a football season where all games are forfeited. If the wrestler was eligible when he won a match that result is in the books and should be final. The DQ In the finals match is penalty enough (or, in this case, perhaps penalty too much.) I generally prefer athletic events to be decided by the athletes, not the referee. And I definitely prefer a system where the scorebook is not changed after the fact.

[ncref]

I don’t have a dog in this hunt, but I do have a comment on the final official bracket. I haven’t coached in a state finals match for over a dozen years, but I still follow the sport closely.

Being disqualified in a state finals match is a harsh penalty and those involved will unfortunately have to live with the ramifications. But to have the official bracket essentially rewritten to show “forfeit” in the prior three matches that were won fair and square smacks of rewriting history. Take the team points away but don’t censor the actual scores from the three wins prior to the finals.

That rule needs to be changed. It’s not as if a team used an ineligible athlete like in a football season where all games are forfeited. If the wrestler was eligible when he won a match that result is in the books and should be final. The DQ In the finals match is penalty enough (or, in this case, perhaps penalty too much.) I generally prefer athletic events to be decided by the athletes, not the referee. And I definitely prefer a system where the scorebook is not changed after the fact.

Rule 8-1-7 covers this situation specifically..Flagrant misconduct results in removal from competition and negating any prior matches.

[mike.carman]

It's been a couple of days since this happened and I have kind of had to let it sink in a bit. I've been silent for good reason. I do have some thoughts on this.
1. He was not the first athlete disqualified for offensive language on the mat in this tournament.
2. He was not the first from that team to be disqualified for the same offense.
3. I always tell my kids to never leave the decision in the hands of the official and that includes your personal behavior on the mat.
4. Yes my son is the state champion but that was decided for him out of his control and he has to deal with that in his way. He hates it, because he wanted to settle it the way it was meant to be settled. I feel that regardless of the outcome of the match, both boys were robbed their moment and everyone is blaming the referee. The athletes are not faultless nor innocent and do have to take responsibility for their actions as well.
5. This is definitely sending a clear message of an attitude of 0 tolerance and I know for fact that this will be a point of emphasis next year and will become the standard moving forward, so be warned.
6. This type of behavior has been allowed for far too long and too much lenience has been exercised for far too long.
7. I hate everything about this decision from both points of view and am really upset that one of my own is involved in this.(Collateral damage)
8. I hate the way adults are approaching this. I believe we(the adults) are acting like children. The two athletes showed more poise and integrity that the adults have over this. The young man who was penalized offered his hand as did the winner. I know bother were extremely disappointed in the outcome.
9. All of this takes away from the accomplishments of both athletes leading up to this 1 match. It soils it for both. To keep droning on and on about it is insulting to both of them. Celebrate both boys accomplishments leading up to this. I don't know all the accolades of his opponent, but I do know there were many, but I do know my sons. He finished his senior year, losing a whole year of eligibility with 129 total wins in 3 seasons and a season record of 50 wins with only 4 losses and 2 of those losses were to his opponent.
10. I know the official very well. I don't always like the way he may cary himself and I don't always like the way he calls a match, but I can speak personally to his character. He does take the job very seriously and looks at it as a way to mold young people into good people. Sometimes it may come off as be biased, but I can assure you, he is not. To drag him down simply because he enforced a rule you don't agree with or don't agree with the way he enforced it, is simply childish and petty. Again, the boys handled it way better.
11. I have the utmost respect for all involved and refuse to degrade anyone over the events that transpired. It's a sucky situation for all that will not change no matter how much we complain about it.
12. Enough is enough. Move on. One boy gets another 2 opportunities to reach the pinnacle, the other does not and will always have a stained title but does have opportunities in the future.
13. Final thought: the athlete that had no influence on this at all is the one that suffers the most in this situation. Think about that for a minute.
14. Everyone keeps touting the rule book. Here is the rule.
NFHS Rules Section 30
ART. 2.
Contestants. Unsportsmanlike conduct involves physical or non-
physical acts and they can occur before, during or after a match. It includes, but
is not limited to, such acts as failure to comply with the direction of the referee,
pushing, shoving, swearing, taunting, intimidation, baiting an opponent, throwing
ear guards or any other equipment, spitting, the clearing of the nasal passage in
other than the proper receptacle, repeatedly dropping to one knee to break locked
hands, indicating displeasure with a call, failure to keep shoulder straps up while
on the mat and failure to comply with the end-of-match procedure. Continuing
acts of unsportsmanlike conduct or any unsportsmanlike conduct may be con-
strued as flagrant misconduct.

Anyway, I thought you guys should hear the other side. The situation sucks, it won't be changed, the match is final, the scores are final, the result is final and if this offends someone, that was not my intention.

[Matofficial]

Mike, You certainly did not offend me in any and for the most part I agree with what you have said. Here is the part that you left out in the rule. You presented the list of misconduct, I agree with all of that. The part you left out is “ may be viewed as flagrant “ . Who determines flagrant, I doubt if you surveyed officials willing to truthfully comment they would have called that flagrant. A sport of high emotions and frustrations can cause inappropriate behavior but who determines flagrant. Definitely not clear in the rule book. So obviously you are incorrect in stating no bias. Don’t confuse bias towards the wrestler or team with the rule itself. Your saying like Planet Fitness’s No Judgment zone. Is that not judging? The rule in itself needs to more clear on what is flagrant and what is not ! Also the two instances you are referring too were not the same thing. In fact they were quite different and therefore should have been handled differently. Please don’t confuse my interpretations as condoning either behavior. Both were wrong and should have been penalized.

[mike.carman]

Mike, You certainly did not offend me in any and for the most part I agree with what you have said. Here is the part that you left out in the rule. You presented the list of misconduct, I agree with all of that. The part you left out is “ may be viewed as flagrant “ . Who determines flagrant, I doubt if you surveyed officials willing to truthfully comment they would have called that flagrant. A sport of high emotions and frustrations can cause inappropriate behavior but who determines flagrant. Definitely not clear in the rule book. So obviously you are incorrect in stating no bias. Don’t confuse bias towards the wrestler or team with the rule itself. Your saying like Planet Fitness’s No Judgment zone. Is that not judging? The rule in itself needs to more clear on what is flagrant and what is not ! Also the two instances you are referring too were not the same thing. In fact they were quite different and therefore should have been handled differently. Please don’t confuse my interpretations as condoning either behavior. Both were wrong and should have been penalized.

The rule I put in this post is a direct copy paste from the NFHS rule book and the very last line speaks to your point especially the last half sentence. "Continuing acts of unsportsmanlike conduct or any unsportsmanlike conduct may be construed as flagrant misconduct." And quite frankly, I have surveyed other officials that were there and also officials that were not there, new officials and seasoned officials. Seasoned officials are pretty unanimous that they would have handled it the same way. Newer officials tended to be more lenient but admitted they don't have the guts to make that call in that match. It really boils down to the type of match it is. In a dual or a meaningless tournament, all would have made the same call. If that is the case, then why is this match any different simply because it was the state finals. I absolutely hate when an official dictates the result of any contest, I don't care if it's tidily winks, unfortunately there are times that dictate they have to.

[Matofficial]

Thanks for pointing that out. The rule says continuing acts. Am I missing something here. You agree that he should be punished for something another teammate did? I don’t know who you surveyed and don’t care but the ones that agreed with the call doesn’t surprise me. Probably the same ones that told me the opposite just like they officiate. I don’t think the intention of the rule when it refers to continuous means things that occurred by another wrestler. I sure hope after your post that you weren’t agreeing with that! Again don’t confuse my statement with I think it was ok because it most certainly was not and should have been penalized.

[aacoach126]

Thanks for pointing that out. The rule says continuing acts. Am I missing something here. You agree that he should be punished for something another teammate did? I don’t know who you surveyed and don’t care but the ones that agreed with the call doesn’t surprise me. Probably the same ones that told me the opposite just like they officiate. I don’t think the intention of the rule when it refers to continuous means things that occurred by another wrestler. I sure hope after your post that you weren’t agreeing with that! Again don’t confuse my statement with I think it was ok because it most certainly was not and should have been penalized.

"Continuing acts of unsportsmanlike conduct or any unsportsmanlike conduct may be construed as flagrant misconduct."

[Matofficial]

Aacoach126, not sure what your point is. I know the rule book quite well especially after 50 years of officiating. The point is who and how do you determine whether it’s flagrant. The rule is vague and why wait to the state finals to inconsistently determine its flagrant. I know that under the same situation that particular official has had the same violation and called it differently. In fairness to him I wasn’t on the mat and do not understand how that was determined.

[mike.carman]

Thanks for pointing that out. The rule says continuing acts. Am I missing something here. You agree that he should be punished for something another teammate did? I don’t know who you surveyed and don’t care but the ones that agreed with the call doesn’t surprise me. Probably the same ones that told me the opposite just like they officiate. I don’t think the intention of the rule when it refers to continuous means things that occurred by another wrestler. I sure hope after your post that you weren’t agreeing with that! Again don’t confuse my statement with I think it was ok because it most certainly was not and should have been penalized.

"Continuing acts of unsportsmanlike conduct or any unsportsmanlike conduct may be construed as flagrant misconduct."

Look, I am not going to get into what should or shouldn't have been, I only deal with what is. He enforced a rule and enforced a rule harshly. Each of us need to make our own decision as to whether it was too harsh, just right, or not harsh enough. My ultimate point is, it's done, it's over, it's not going to change, there isn't going to be any going back and redoing it. So move on and let everyone else do the same.

[aacoach126]

Aacoach126, not sure what your point is. I know the rule book quite well especially after 50 years of officiating. The point is who and how do you determine whether it’s flagrant. The rule is vague and why wait to the state finals to inconsistently determine its flagrant. I know that under the same situation that particular official has had the same violation and called it differently. In fairness to him I wasn’t on the mat and do not understand how that was determined.

I misunderstood you previous comment then. I was pointing out that the rule says continuing misconduct or any misconduct could be construed as flagrant. As far as who determines whether it is flagrant or not, that would have to be the individual calling that match. I understand this opens the rule up to various interpretations.

[Rams1]

Seldom have I commented on the WVMat Forum. However, I am aware of the official in question regarding the disqualification of a wrestler in this year's tournament. I worked with him for many years at both regional and state tournaments during much of my 28 years of officiating in WV. Disqualifying a wrestler, whether it is the first round or championship match, is of no small matter. He takes officiating as one of the most important endeavors of his life. His preparation is second to none. Anyone can second guess calls made by any official in any sport, but to insinuate that this official does not understand the rules or misapplies them most likely enjoy being the "armchair quarterback". Wrestling, like all secondary sports, needs an influx of officials if sanctioned events are to continue. Officiating a state tournament is an honor filled with stress. No official ever wants to be the reason for a win or a loss. However, to read on this outlet and other social platforms that this official hates certain programs, is power hungry, should be banned, etc. is only emblematic of the culture in which we now must live. Sometimes we need to learn lessons!! Tom Woods

[Doyablameme?]

Thanks for pointing that out. The rule says continuing acts. Am I missing something here. You agree that he should be punished for something another teammate did? I don’t know who you surveyed and don’t care but the ones that agreed with the call doesn’t surprise me. Probably the same ones that told me the opposite just like they officiate. I don’t think the intention of the rule when it refers to continuous means things that occurred by another wrestler. I sure hope after your post that you weren’t agreeing with that! Again don’t confuse my statement with I think it was ok because it most certainly was not and should have been penalized.

"Continuing acts of unsportsmanlike conduct or any unsportsmanlike conduct may be construed as flagrant misconduct."

Look, I am not going to get into what should or shouldn't have been, I only deal with what is. He enforced a rule and enforced a rule harshly. Each of us need to make our own decision as to whether it was too harsh, just right, or not harsh enough. My ultimate point is, it's done, it's over, it's not going to change, there isn't going to be any going back and redoing it. So move on and let everyone else do the same.

Nah , not ready to move on … what the ref did at 160 AAA was an over the top bad decision. And clearly the two incidents involving South wrestlers have no business being lumped together.

[Matofficial]

I agree and if you just move on nothing will ever be resolved. I believe in giving it a shot at trying to improve the future. By just being quiet and saying nothing indicates you don’t care. I am not trying to change what has been done. Obviously too late for that. However we still have the future. I complained to Dan Doyle for five years about coaches passes and was told the same thing. However in year five a change was made. I have complained for years the two 100 question officials tests are unnecessary. Last year they dropped it to 50 questions. Sit back and taking it is not in my blood. Will repercussions come from my complaining, more than likely. I am not 100 pct convinced it wasn’t already, but we won’t go there.

[wiseone]

So, the annual slamming and criticizing of officials during the State Tournament continues. Dave, in your commentary you said the the "f" word was used by a wrestler. And others also chimed in with their remarks about it. And one comment was about an alleged bad behavior by a coach possibly not related to this event. I will agree with a couple of the comments on this subject. It is sad that a wrestler was DQd over it. Without questioning your knowledge of the rules we both know that the 'F' word will disqualify you from further wrestling or remove you from the tournament at any time.

As a point of reference several years ago after a match ended with a wrestler winning his match for 3rd place (if memory serves me) I held up the right hand of this particular wrestler (don't remember his name and if I did I would not embarrass him) and this young man gave the opposing coach (and at that time registered and highly respected official) the middle finger. He didn't verbalize it. But it was obvious who it was intended for as he looked right at the coach and held it high enough for him to see it. This coach/official came unglued and in my mind rightfully so although I later learned that there was a not so pleasant history between this young man and the coach. I immediately penalized him for Flagrant Misconduct costing him 3rd place and a lot of team points. One of the coaches of the young man who was in the chair at mat side was the young man's father who pleaded with me to reverse the call. I told him that everyone knows that the raised middle finger is the same as the verbalized version and I can't reverse it because I saw it and so did the most of the fans in attendance. This father/coach asked to speak with the rules interpreter and I said sure because he is standing right behind you. He pleaded his case to which Bill said that the Flagrant Misconduct stands. Talk about being the most hated person in the arena. I was booed loudly. Even heard some remarks questioning my family ancestry and sexual orientation.

I'm not trying to fuel the flames but Chris is a friend as are several of you who have commented on this thread. If he was wrong trust me he would get more abuse from us (current and former officials) than any of you.

Bottom line is this in my book. Like me or disagree with me "f$#k" will get you gone in any high school sport. Ther is no gray area.

Ray Marling/Wiseone
Retired OVAC and WVSSAC Official

[brentsams]

...
Bottom line is this in my book. Like me or disagree with me "f$#k" will get you gone in any high school sport. Ther is no gray area.

Ray Marling/Wiseone
Retired OVAC and WVSSAC Official

You as a referee proved the point people are arguing by saying "in my book". You are confirming referees have their own standards (and maybe different standards) on what constitutes unsportsmanlike conduct and flagrant misconduct. I could not find a list of curse words in the rule book that differs between unsportsmanlike conduct curse words nor could I find a list of flagrant misconduct curse words in the rule book as opposed to your book. Bottom line is this, what does the rule book say on cursing irregardless of the word used since there is no list provided. But what I'm hearing you say it's an unwritten rule that using the f-bomb is an automatic DQ.

I agree with you when the curse words are directed at someone, that is flagrant misconduct, and you was right in DQing the wrestler in your example because that was flagrant. But I disagree with you that it is automatic DQ whenever used. When curse words are not directed at anyone and only said out of frustration of their own circumstance and only towards oneself, it is unsportsmanlike conduct, and not flagrant misconduct.

I also asked a basketball official what the penalty is for a similar situation in a basketball game and he said it's a technical foul, not an ejection. So it will not "get you gone in any high school sport".

I also found in the rule book that the use of tobacco products on site is flagrant misconduct. But the wrestling officials I see smoking after weigh-ins are not removed from officiating the tournament nor do I seek to have them disqualified as that would have been harsh. But how can an official apply misconduct when they are flagrantly in violation of it themselves? How can I trust their judgement? Isn't what's good for the goose is good for the gander?

A scoring question for the Wiseone, in your example of DQing the winning wrestler after the match and before the bout slip was signed, what place did the opposing wrestler finish at? 3rd or 4th?

[Matofficial]

Ray, I went back through my comments and couldn’t find anywhere that I said a wrestling used the F word nor did I say anything about a coaches conduct. I know the inner workings of officiating as well as anyone and for the most have no complaints about most calls. My whole point was to install video review and a few other things to make officials more efficient. The two incidents that occurred were two complete situations. We all make mistakes and I certainly have made my share. The particular incident that in my opinion was a bit over the top. As stated in my opinion, no one else’s. However I did speak with several of the officials there and they agreed. I also understand most people in general want to just agree and move on and they will just say what you want to hear. I preach to our wrestlers never talk to the officials that is the coaches job and in this particular case the comment from my position was not directed towards the official it was out of frustration about a nose bleed. Lastly I am not sure of your point in the commentary.

[Matofficial]

Brent, your comments were very well written and the exact point I have been trying to get across. Also again thank you Ray for making Brent and myself point more clear with your example. Lastly I am not commenting on any particular officials skills. The one in discussion knows what I think of his officiating as I have voiced it to him, coaches and other officials many times. Never in a negative manner. Well maybe in this one but either way life will go one. One last comment Ray you of all officials, as many years that you have been officiating are telling me that every time you heard the F word that person was ejected? Or are you saying it could be a cause for being ejected?

[Doyablameme?]

So, the annual slamming and criticizing of officials during the State Tournament continues. Dave, in your commentary you said the the "f" word was used by a wrestler. And others also chimed in with their remarks about it. And one comment was about an alleged bad behavior by a coach possibly not related to this event. I will agree with a couple of the comments on this subject. It is sad that a wrestler was DQd over it. Without questioning your knowledge of the rules we both know that the 'F' word will disqualify you from further wrestling or remove you from the tournament at any time.

As a point of reference several years ago after a match ended with a wrestler winning his match for 3rd place (if memory serves me) I held up the right hand of this particular wrestler (don't remember his name and if I did I would not embarrass him) and this young man gave the opposing coach (and at that time registered and highly respected official) the middle finger. He didn't verbalize it. But it was obvious who it was intended for as he looked right at the coach and held it high enough for him to see it. This coach/official came unglued and in my mind rightfully so although I later learned that there was a not so pleasant history between this young man and the coach. I immediately penalized him for Flagrant Misconduct costing him 3rd place and a lot of team points. One of the coaches of the young man who was in the chair at mat side was the young man's father who pleaded with me to reverse the call. I told him that everyone knows that the raised middle finger is the same as the verbalized version and I can't reverse it because I saw it and so did the most of the fans in attendance. This father/coach asked to speak with the rules interpreter and I said sure because he is standing right behind you. He pleaded his case to which Bill said that the Flagrant Misconduct stands. Talk about being the most hated person in the arena. I was booed loudly. Even heard some remarks questioning my family ancestry and sexual orientation.

I'm not trying to fuel the flames but Chris is a friend as are several of you who have commented on this thread. If he was wrong trust me he would get more abuse from us (current and former officials) than any of you.

Bottom line is this in my book. Like me or disagree with me "f$#k" will get you gone in any high school sport. Ther is no gray area.

Ray Marling/Wiseone
Retired OVAC and WVSSAC Official

Mr Marling , were u in attendance at the match in question. (160 lb AAA Finals). And , if you were in attendance did u watch the match and if so did you hear the swear word in its context with all the circumstances involved with the DQ of that match ?
Curious

[Bearhugger]

I think the wrestling rule book is "OUR" book. It belongs to the officials, the wrestlers, the coaches, the parents, the fans and everybody else involved in wrestling.

Believe it or not, I refereed one year in 1989. I was part of George Keeney's group in Kanawha County. We met every Sunday in Stonewall Jackson's wrestling room to work on officiating.

The biggest thing I recall was that George wanted all of us to be CONSISTENT! George would sometime start the meeting with a situation that happened the Saturday before. He would have two of us get on the mat, put us in the situation, go over what happened and then state what the call was. George would then ask the group if everybody agreed. George would then conclude with "Ok, so we are ALL going to call this as this". The entire group would agree.

Fast forward to 2022 WSAZ. Many people were working on fundraisers for George's grandchildren. I ran into a former referee who was present in those Sunday training session back in 1989. I am sure he didn't remember me, but he remembered the stories I shared from those days. I advised that the biggest thing I took away from that experience was consistency. George worked for consistency. I then asked this ref/former ref if the current referees still strived for consistency and his reply was along the lines "not as much".

I hope that all concerned members of the wrestling community stay vigilant in their quest for desired change.

I am sure there is great honor, great pride and great stress involved with officiating the state tournament. The honor and pride should also be conducted during the "off mat" time while in Huntington during the state tournament. The honor and pride should be maintained while making an acceptance speech at the Hall of Fame Induction. Discussions of calls made should be in terms of explaining, educating and striving for consistency as George strived for. These discussions should not be adversarial.

One last thing about George. He paid me a great complement 1 to 2 years ago. Somebody came walking up into the stands with George Keeney. George wanted to meet "Bearhugger". When I told George I had been one of his refs at one time, he acted like he remembered. Anyway, George told me that I brought "a different perspective" to wrestling/WVMat's forum. Some agree some do not. I took it as a complement.

George sought me out and he offered friendship and complements. My detractors send cowardly messages written on napkins. Thank you George.

Perhaps somebody can take the lead and ensure consistency. When controversial calls get made, we have a bigger problem when fans witness inconsistencies throughout a tournament and/or reference what other referees think or feel.

If a wrestler gets kicked out for saying the word "fart" while on the mat, then that should become the precedent for wrestling going forward.

[wiseone]

Dave, you are right about the statement I made about the f word in your post. I was wrong as I thought I read it as that. I stand corrected.

Brent, I used "in my book" only as a figure of speech. Not to declare that the rule book is interpreted by me as such. Whether we are agreeing or not and it appears as though some of you gents do not, the "f-word" has no place in the wrestling area.

As for the situation I related in my previous post if memory serves me there was no 3rd place awarded that year and the 4th place wrestler had already lost the match so he stayed at 4th place? If memory serves me.

Doyoublameme?
No sir I was not there. I was made aware of the incident by my friend. I trust his judgement and his skill on the mat as well as off of it.

Bearhugger,
Your enthusiasm for the sport is well known and I'm certain that there are wrestling fans around the state that appreciate your work on keeping the uninformed aware of the comings and goings of the wrestling community. That being said what I said in my Hall of Fame speech was my way of calming myself in a very rewarding but stressful 5 minutes. Wrestling officials around the state meet several times during the preseason and during the season to "get it right". Do we/they always get it right? No. Nobody is perfect. Wrestling officiating is one aspect of life where we are expected to start perfect and get better. Doesn't always happen. I did not badmouth anyone let alone name names. The "f word" problem should be handled in all sports consistently. Is it? I doubt it?

I believe that nowhere in my previous post did I criticize a coach, a kid, or an official. Have I disagreed with calls by other officials? Yes I have. Have I talked about those calls with them trying to see their reason for them? Yes! As Secretary of my association (Ohio Valley Wrestling Officials) for 14 years it was my responsibility to educate and train new officials and deal with the problems that may have occurred from poor or wrong application and judgment. Did I always get it right on the mat? Nope! And for those moments I did not get the honor and privilege of working the States a couple of years.

Wiseone/Ray Marling

[jcrouch]

My name is Jesse Crouch. I was the wrestler who was thrown out of the tournament by this official who appeared to be a good friend of the coach of Nitro. I did flip the coach off. He was very harsh with me during the 7 matches I wrestled against his kids that year. The wrestler I pinned was a friend of mine. Coach White told him not to let me help him up after I pinned him. He was antagonizing at the very least and disrespectful. I felt then and do now that the action taken against me was a bit extreme. Mind you nothing was said to the opposing coach, perhaps due to him being an official himself. I could understand team points being taken away but to lose your entire position in your weight class over something as small as a middle finger felt pointed by whoever this official is and yes I had a reputation. I would change it if I could don’t get me wrong. Young and dumb at the time.

[Bearhugger]

Dave, you are right about the statement I made about the f word in your post. I was wrong as I thought I read it as that. I stand corrected.

Brent, I used "in my book" only as a figure of speech. Not to declare that the rule book is interpreted by me as such. Whether we are agreeing or not and it appears as though some of you gents do not, the "f-word" has no place in the wrestling area.

As for the situation I related in my previous post if memory serves me there was no 3rd place awarded that year and the 4th place wrestler had already lost the match so he stayed at 4th place? If memory serves me.

Doyoublameme?
No sir I was not there. I was made aware of the incident by my friend. I trust his judgement and his skill on the mat as well as off of it.

Bearhugger,
Your enthusiasm for the sport is well known and I'm certain that there are wrestling fans around the state that appreciate your work on keeping the uninformed aware of the comings and goings of the wrestling community. That being said what I said in my Hall of Fame speech was my way of calming myself in a very rewarding but stressful 5 minutes. Wrestling officials around the state meet several times during the preseason and during the season to "get it right". Do we/they always get it right? No. Nobody is perfect. Wrestling officiating is one aspect of life where we are expected to start perfect and get better. Doesn't always happen. I did not badmouth anyone let alone name names. The "f word" problem should be handled in all sports consistently. Is it? I doubt it?

I believe that nowhere in my previous post did I criticize a coach, a kid, or an official. Have I disagreed with calls by other officials? Yes I have. Have I talked about those calls with them trying to see their reason for them? Yes! As Secretary of my association (Ohio Valley Wrestling Officials) for 14 years it was my responsibility to educate and train new officials and deal with the problems that may have occurred from poor or wrong application and judgment. Did I always get it right on the mat? Nope! And for those moments I did not get the honor and privilege of working the States a couple of years.

Wiseone/Ray Marling

Well Wiseone, your response has helped conclude something dating back to 2018.