Heavyweight Stalling

[Underdog3382]

The officials at the State Tournament did a good job. I noticed an uptick on stalling calls in general at the tournament this year, a welcome sight. It appeared that most officials made an effort not to let a wrestler profit from inactivity.

However, from what I could tell this did not seem to apply to the Heavyweights (with the exception of the obvious call that helped decide the AAA Heavyweight championship match). Too often the officials let Heavyweights off the hook for failing to actually engage in wrestling. Too often they are permitted to run backwards off the mat. As a consequence, many of them have taken to simply "playing defense" in neutral and running off the mat when there is pressure or a threat.

We would have more exciting matches if stalling were called more frequently in heavyweight matches. Further, more actual wrestling from these guys would likely mean more matches would be won by the better wrestler.

[bootrider221]

Brown 285 from Greenbrier West was wrestling Mikey Hamrick from Magnolia for 3rd and 4th and Blood time was called with 45 seconds in the third. brown was up 5-1 when the match started Brown backed up out of and was pushing Hamrick away from him. Even though Brown was the better wrestler he should have wrestled the remainder of the time.

[csmith11]

Both heavyweights were hit for stalling in aaa if im correct. neither wrestler was aggressive enough to warrant the second call. Now for the obvious call that decided the match was not a stall but a obvious fleeing the mat call that wouldve for sure resulted in a takedown. in your own words (However, from what I could tell this did not seem to apply to the Heavyweights (with the exception of the obvious call that helped decide the AAA Heavyweight championship match). Too often the officials let Heavyweights off the hook for failing to actually engage in wrestling. Too often they are permitted to run backwards off the mat. As a consequence, many of them have taken to simply "playing defense" in neutral and running off the mat when there is pressure or a threat.) sounds like the ref made the call you want him to make except when its in souths favor? I think the other kid made the right choice in deciding to give up one instead of giving up 2 and having to be on bottom.

[wv16refgk]

Great call by the official for fleeing as he clearly was trying to get out to avoid a takedownGK

[Underdog3382]

Both heavyweights were hit for stalling in aaa if im correct. neither wrestler was aggressive enough to warrant the second call. Now for the obvious call that decided the match was not a stall but a obvious fleeing the mat call that wouldve for sure resulted in a takedown. in your own words (However, from what I could tell this did not seem to apply to the Heavyweights (with the exception of the obvious call that helped decide the AAA Heavyweight championship match). Too often the officials let Heavyweights off the hook for failing to actually engage in wrestling. Too often they are permitted to run backwards off the mat. As a consequence, many of them have taken to simply "playing defense" in neutral and running off the mat when there is pressure or a threat.) sounds like the ref made the call you want him to make except when its in souths favor? I think the other kid made the right choice in deciding to give up one instead of giving up 2 and having to be on bottom.

Lol. You know, not everything is about "South". The only reason I even mentioned that particular match was that I was trying to remember any stalling/flleeing the mat calls in heavyweight matches and that one came to mind. I thought that if I didn't mention it, someone would come on here and say, "Yeah, but what about the stalling call in the AAA heavyweight final?" It had nothing to do with South or Riverside at all. In fact, I am happy for Haga that he was able to win this year. Moreover, as I said in my original post, the call against Riverside was obvious - meaning it was the correct call (and as you said, it was also the right call for Riverside to give up the point as opposed to a takedown). Not sure how or why you twisted this to somehow make it anti-"South".

Now, you are correct that I have commingled "stalling" and "fleeing the mat", but the context of my post makes clear that heavyweights are being permitted to engage in both activities too frequently.

[aacoach132]

I've been a heavyweight sized wrestler for the majority of my post-pubescent life. There are two things I can't stand about the weight class:
1) Heavyweights are rarely called for stalling.
2) When they are called for stalling, it's because the other guy run-blocks them out of bounds.

It's frustrating. Wrestler A is active and attempting throw/shot/movement over and over, but Wrestler B just leans in and drives Wrestler A out of bounds... oh NOW we get a stall call.

A point of emphasis in rule editing this year was what constitutes a stall when going out of bounds. It changed nothing in referee interpretations. Allowing heavyweights to push their opponents out does not increase action at the big boy matches, but limits it.

[wrestlefan304]

In a heavyweight match at the State Tournament this year, one of the heavyweights (call him wrestler A) essentially refused to actually wrestle while in neutral. When the other wrestler (wrestler B) would force the action, wrestler A would simply back up to the edge of the mat and then go over when it appeared he might be in trouble. At several times during the match, wrestler B moved back to the center of the mat and pointed at the center circle, trying to force/shame wrestler A into leaving his sanctuary at the edge. Of course, the officials did nothing.

Wrestler A was good at escaping, so it was apparent that his entire game plan centered on getting to overtime. In fact, before the first overtime period, his coach clarified with the referees that the match would not end automatically if wrestler A was called for stalling during the 1:00 time in neutral. At this point, the officials should have been on notice that wrestler A's plan was to stall during the entire first overtime period. Of course, the officials did nothing when that is exactly what happened.

[csmith11]

Maybe I misinterpreted your post since I only watched the finals since we had districts that same weekend. I thought the refs did a good job. I read your post as you were complaining that refs don’t call it but upset they called it in the finals. If you were complaining just about consistency than I agree with you as it’s even worse down here in Florida. They let a lot slide during the year and as soon as the state series comes around it’s as if there is a new set of rules.

[wrestlingfan23202]

Did you guys watch 220 AA/A semifinal match!? The better wrestler was Summers take nothing away from cook he is good too. First period ref hit double stall. Second period double stall both a point then with 11 secs left hit summers with stalling and summers lost by 1. Total garbage call two reasons why. 1. You’re in the state semifinals let them decide it out. 2. Cook had an over and underhook on summers now if summers pressures in he is going to get thrown.... summers circled while cook didn’t do a thing with the hooks not one time. He just pushed and tried to get stalling calls. Same ref has been known for messing over wrestlers in these situations! This is becoming sad. I love officials I’m all for them I do baseball and football officiating I understand it’s tough but the inconsistency is so bad.... we can go all year and barely call stalling then at staTES you hit them with it every second. Oh well that official won’t be there next year

[KDunbar]

If stalling was called officially as it is stated in the rules, then as one previous official has stated before, most 285lb matches would end with the referee disqualifying one of the wrestlers. The best wrestler would most likely win. Also, it would eliminate overtime almost entirely. At least in my opinion. Then we would be hearing the argument, let the wrestlers decide it on the mat. Again, in my opinion, they still would have. The only problem comes in when many times the double stall call might just end up eliminating both wrestlers simultaneously.

[JustSomeone]

Did you guys watch 220 AA/A semifinal match!? The better wrestler was Summers take nothing away from cook he is good too. First period ref hit double stall. Second period double stall both a point then with 11 secs left hit summers with stalling and summers lost by 1. Total garbage call two reasons why. 1. You’re in the state semifinals let them decide it out. 2. Cook had an over and underhook on summers now if summers pressures in he is going to get thrown.... summers circled while cook didn’t do a thing with the hooks not one time. He just pushed and tried to get stalling calls. Same ref has been known for messing over wrestlers in these situations! This is becoming sad. I love officials I’m all for them I do baseball and football officiating I understand it’s tough but the inconsistency is so bad.... we can go all year and barely call stalling then at staTES you hit them with it every second. Oh well that official won’t be there next year

Saying "Summers was the better wrestler" is an opinion. Both are fantastic wrestlers, but Cook won. But to address your points:

1. Agreed. However, a wrestler should never let it come down to a stall call. As KDunbar said in the comment above, if stalling is called correctly then most upperweight matches end in disqualification. Just because they are big guys, doesn't mean they can't do offensive moves like the rest of the field. Stalling is stalling, doesn't matter the size.

2. It is important to understand that if Cooks has an over and under hook......Summers would have the same position. With that in mind, we see Cooks moving forward in an attempt keep the position of the over/under or try an offensive move, while Summers circled and backed away to get out of the over/under and not attempt an offensive move. Seems the ref was going to penalize inaction, and did so throughout the match. Even the little guys get penalized for backing out of a similar situation. Not taking away anything from Cooks or Summers, both tremendous wrestlers, but the ref seemingly made the right call.

[Underdog3382]

"Just because they are big guys, doesn't mean they can't do offensive moves like the rest of the field. Stalling is stalling, doesn't matter the size."

Exactly right.

[Underdog3382]

Maybe I misinterpreted your post since I only watched the finals since we had districts that same weekend. I thought the refs did a good job. I read your post as you were complaining that refs don’t call it but upset they called it in the finals. If you were complaining just about consistency than I agree with you as it’s even worse down here in Florida. They let a lot slide during the year and as soon as the state series comes around it’s as if there is a new set of rules.

No problem. Yeah, I wasn't talking about the AAA finals match (which was called correctly), just complaining generally about stalling/fleeing in heavyweight matches and the officials letting guys get away with it.

[Studcradle]

Saying "Summers was the better wrestler" is an opinion. Both are fantastic wrestlers, but Cook won. But to address your points:

1. Agreed. However, a wrestler should never let it come down to a stall call. As KDunbar said in the comment above, if stalling is called correctly then most upperweight matches end in disqualification. Just because they are big guys, doesn't mean they can't do offensive moves like the rest of the field. Stalling is stalling, doesn't matter the size.

2. It is important to understand that if Cooks has an over and under hook......Summers would have the same position. With that in mind, we see Cooks moving forward in an attempt keep the position of the over/under or try an offensive move, while Summers circled and backed away to get out of the over/under and not attempt an offensive move. Seems the ref was going to penalize inaction, and did so throughout the match. Even the little guys get penalized for backing out of a similar situation. Not taking away anything from Cooks or Summers, both tremendous wrestlers, but the ref seemingly made the right call.

I rarely agree with Justsomeone but I agree with him here that the official made the correct call. May have been karma from staying down after an illegal slam call to advance in the previous round?

[wrestlingfan23202]

Saying "Summers was the better wrestler" is an opinion. Both are fantastic wrestlers, but Cook won. But to address your points:

1. Agreed. However, a wrestler should never let it come down to a stall call. As KDunbar said in the comment above, if stalling is called correctly then most upperweight matches end in disqualification. Just because they are big guys, doesn't mean they can't do offensive moves like the rest of the field. Stalling is stalling, doesn't matter the size.

2. It is important to understand that if Cooks has an over and under hook......Summers would have the same position. With that in mind, we see Cooks moving forward in an attempt keep the position of the over/under or try an offensive move, while Summers circled and backed away to get out of the over/under and not attempt an offensive move. Seems the ref was going to penalize inaction, and did so throughout the match. Even the little guys get penalized for backing out of a similar situation. Not taking away anything from Cooks or Summers, both tremendous wrestlers, but the ref seemingly made the right call.

I rarely agree with Justsomeone but I agree with him here that the official made the correct call. May have been karma from staying down after an illegal slam call to advance in the previous round?

Well he shouldn’t have illegally slammed him..... hence ILLEGALLY. Secondly he has beat shamblin multiple times this time wouldn’t have been different lol. You’re so wrong about your underhooks. What exactly did cook do with the underhooks? Now I will say cook is great

[Studcradle]

Got 3rd and was the 3rd best wrestler in the weight. Placed in the same spot he would have in aaa.

[aaacoach49]

Saying "Summers was the better wrestler" is an opinion. Both are fantastic wrestlers, but Cook won. But to address your points:

1. Agreed. However, a wrestler should never let it come down to a stall call. As KDunbar said in the comment above, if stalling is called correctly then most upperweight matches end in disqualification. Just because they are big guys, doesn't mean they can't do offensive moves like the rest of the field. Stalling is stalling, doesn't matter the size.

2. It is important to understand that if Cooks has an over and under hook......Summers would have the same position. With that in mind, we see Cooks moving forward in an attempt keep the position of the over/under or try an offensive move, while Summers circled and backed away to get out of the over/under and not attempt an offensive move. Seems the ref was going to penalize inaction, and did so throughout the match. Even the little guys get penalized for backing out of a similar situation. Not taking away anything from Cooks or Summers, both tremendous wrestlers, but the ref seemingly made the right call.

I rarely agree with Justsomeone but I agree with him here that the official made the correct call. May have been karma from staying down after an illegal slam call to advance in the previous round?

If you are referring to Summers staying down...I wasnt even aware that occurred in a match. I didnt see the match or the slam, but I did see him exiting the floor on the AAA side after a quarter finals match. I was surprised when I saw him because he was struggling to walk out and was in obvious pain with tears in his eyes. At the time I made the assumption he must have lost his match if he was looking that bad. He was in a lot of pain. There's no reason to call him out and suggest a subsequent match may of been karma for him staying down after the illegal slam.

[wrestlingfan23202]

Saying "Summers was the better wrestler" is an opinion. Both are fantastic wrestlers, but Cook won. But to address your points:

1. Agreed. However, a wrestler should never let it come down to a stall call. As KDunbar said in the comment above, if stalling is called correctly then most upperweight matches end in disqualification. Just because they are big guys, doesn't mean they can't do offensive moves like the rest of the field. Stalling is stalling, doesn't matter the size.

2. It is important to understand that if Cooks has an over and under hook......Summers would have the same position. With that in mind, we see Cooks moving forward in an attempt keep the position of the over/under or try an offensive move, while Summers circled and backed away to get out of the over/under and not attempt an offensive move. Seems the ref was going to penalize inaction, and did so throughout the match. Even the little guys get penalized for backing out of a similar situation. Not taking away anything from Cooks or Summers, both tremendous wrestlers, but the ref seemingly made the right call.

I rarely agree with Justsomeone but I agree with him here that the official made the correct call. May have been karma from staying down after an illegal slam call to advance in the previous round?

If you are referring to Summers staying down...I wasnt even aware that occurred in a match. I didnt see the match or the slam, but I did see him exiting the flood on the AAA side after a quarter finals match. I was surprised when I saw him because he was struggling to walk out and was in obvious pain with tears in his eyes. At the time I made the assumption he must have lost his match if he was looking that bad. He was in a lot of pain. There's no reason to call him out and suggest a subsequent match may of been karma for him staying down after the illegal slam.

Amen! Some people on this site are disgusting why would you even make that false and bogus statement. You know a good solution don’t illegally slam him if you don’t want him to lay there. Secondly, he was hurt he fought thru the pain the whole time it sucks that a bad call in 11 secs took that away from him. Terrible call. I’m all for don’t let an official dictate the match but you can’t call stalling on one of them if both are stalling in a semifinal match between the top two wrestlers in that class.

[Studcradle]

1. There was an illegal slam call
2. He took all of his recovery time
3. He won by disqualification
4. He lost his next match on what you have deemed a controversial call
5. He received a 3rd place medal

What was the match score at the time of the slam call?

The only opinion I offered was that he would not beat Wood or Amos but would probably finish ahead of the remainder of the aaa field. You disagree with my opinion?

[wrestlingfan23202]

1. There was an illegal slam call
2. He took all of his recovery time
3. He won by disqualification
4. He lost his next match on what you have deemed a controversial call
5. He received a 3rd place medal

What was the match score at the time of the slam call?

The only opinion I offered was that he would not beat Wood or Amos but would probably finish ahead of the remainder of the aaa field. You disagree with my opinion?

It was a bad call 0-0 it happened in the first 45 secs

[wrestlingfan23202]

Wood and him would be close but heck no no one will beat Amos in WV at least

[JustSomeone]

Saying "Summers was the better wrestler" is an opinion. Both are fantastic wrestlers, but Cook won. But to address your points:

1. Agreed. However, a wrestler should never let it come down to a stall call. As KDunbar said in the comment above, if stalling is called correctly then most upperweight matches end in disqualification. Just because they are big guys, doesn't mean they can't do offensive moves like the rest of the field. Stalling is stalling, doesn't matter the size.

2. It is important to understand that if Cooks has an over and under hook......Summers would have the same position. With that in mind, we see Cooks moving forward in an attempt keep the position of the over/under or try an offensive move, while Summers circled and backed away to get out of the over/under and not attempt an offensive move. Seems the ref was going to penalize inaction, and did so throughout the match. Even the little guys get penalized for backing out of a similar situation. Not taking away anything from Cooks or Summers, both tremendous wrestlers, but the ref seemingly made the right call.

I rarely agree with Justsomeone but I agree with him here that the official made the correct call. May have been karma from staying down after an illegal slam call to advance in the previous round?

Well he shouldn’t have illegally slammed him..... hence ILLEGALLY. Secondly he has beat shamblin multiple times this time wouldn’t have been different lol. You’re so wrong about your underhooks. What exactly did cook do with the underhooks? Now I will say cook is great

Don't know anything about an illegal slam. Are you saying that never, in the history of wrestling, has a wrestler beaten an opponent at the state tournament who has beaten him multiple times in the season? Anything can happen at states, its hypothetical to say how that match would have gone without the apparent slam. I am not wrong about the over/under hooks, Summers would have had the same position. Cooks moved forward with them (not stalling), summers moved backwards to get out of it (seems to be stalling). I advise you to look up what stalling is, and watch videos on the under/over hook position.

[aacoach73]

I watched the video again last night. Summers was burying his head and backing up Trying to stop the over and under. I’m not going to get into a big discussion with wrestlingfan2302 about it. I can send you the video if you need it(wrestlingfan). Any one of those boys , on any given day would beat the other. Just happened to be Garrett’s day.
I myself would have let the kids battle it out in overtime, but I’m not a ref. The referee in that match is very consistent. I’ve had a couple disagreements with him, but in my opinion his is a good solid ref not afraid to make the tuff call.
Dennis Cook

[csham27]

First of all Summers hasn't beaten Shamblin multiple times, the last time they wrestled was at Winners choice last season where he won in overtime over Shamblin, and i cant find record of them wresting in Shamblins freshman year. For you to imply "this time wouldn't have been different " shows your ignorance. Any kid can win given they work hard enough and had the match continued you may have been disappointed. Watching the match I would like to know what you think was "illegal" about that slam wrestling fan 23202 ? Was it because the ref called it that after Summers used all of his recovery time, or was it because a 440lb weight makes a lot of noise when it hits the mat? If you paid attention during the match had Shamblin not picked up Summers, then Summers was gonna pick up Shamblin, either way ending in a slam at the end, it was 0-0 they were both fighting for that first take down. I just think its ridiculous that the bigger kids are the ones being called for it while lighter weights get tossed all over and rarely get a call for it. We want bigger kids to move and not stall , be more offensive but don't lift, good luck with that.

[RealGreco]

I don’t follow WV wrestling but making statements like “ no one will ever beat “———“ in WV. Most of you young kids never watched Dan Gable lose his last college match of his career. Saunderson got beat out of the Olympic trials on his last go. Anyone can be beaten and that is why we never underestimate anyone.

We had a heavyweight that placed 2nd in state, but he ws lazy on the bottom. His dad asked me to help him to fight. I got a ln low voltage taser... walked around the room lighten it up. Everyone moved !!!!!

When the team wrestled... I held up the taser and lit it up to make the familiar static noise. It seemed like everyone did well getting the escape. Never once did anyone get tased!

That was back in the 90’s when the parents approved .. cannot do it today because it would seemed to be cruel.

[mscoach4]

.
I would have to agree that Braxton will never be beaten in high school by a WV wrestler and furthermore I highly doubt any high school wrestler anywhere will beat him either. South fans, has he ever given up an offensive point to anyone in high school? I looked through his Ironman and Powerade results. 2 points in the Ironman championship this year is the most points I can find. I am asking South fans because it is possible that he gave up offensive points before he got a pin and that won't show up in the results.

[Gator]

.
I would have to agree that Braxton will never be beaten in high school by a WV wrestler and furthermore I highly doubt any high school wrestler anywhere will beat him either. South fans, has he ever given up an offensive point to anyone in high school? I looked through his Ironman and Powerade results. 2 points in the Ironman championship this year is the most points I can find. I am asking South fans because it is possible that he gave up offensive points before he got a pin and that won't show up in the results.

He has not given up an offensive point in 2 years. Pretty impressive considering South’s schedule.

[wrestlingfan23202]

I rarely agree with Justsomeone but I agree with him here that the official made the correct call. May have been karma from staying down after an illegal slam call to advance in the previous round?

Well he shouldn’t have illegally slammed him..... hence ILLEGALLY. Secondly he has beat shamblin multiple times this time wouldn’t have been different lol. You’re so wrong about your underhooks. What exactly did cook do with the underhooks? Now I will say cook is great

Don't know anything about an illegal slam. Are you saying that never, in the history of wrestling, has a wrestler beaten an opponent at the state tournament who has beaten him multiple times in the season? Anything can happen at states, its hypothetical to say how that match would have gone without the apparent slam. I am not wrong about the over/under hooks, Summers would have had the same position. Cooks moved forward with them (not stalling), summers moved backwards to get out of it (seems to be stalling). I advise you to look up what stalling is, and watch videos on the under/over hook position.

First off I’m not saying he can’t beat him you’re right anyone can be beat. I’m just saying summers is the better wrestler but shamblin is good as well... I think it’s unfair to assume things about a kid staying down is all. He wanted to continue trust me.

You’re super wrong on your underhooks. Buddy I hate to tell you if summers pushes in he gets thrown to his back (which is what cook wanted) you can’t pressure in with underhooks anyone that knows wrestling knows that lol. He wasn’t backing up he was circling which isn’t stalling necessarily cook was pushing him back at every chance hoping for a stalling call he didn’t attempt one takedown. Now cook is a great wrestler and he deserves his championship but it should’ve been decided on the mat not a bad stalling call when they both were stalling I’m just a fan I have no dog in the fight I’m just telling you what I saw. I just go as a fan to watch staTES every year

[wrestlingfan23202]

I watched the video again last night. Summers was burying his head and backing up Trying to stop the over and under. I’m not going to get into a big discussion with wrestlingfan2302 about it. I can send you the video if you need it(wrestlingfan). Any one of those boys , on any given day would beat the other. Just happened to be Garrett’s day.
I myself would have let the kids battle it out in overtime, but I’m not a ref. The referee in that match is very consistent. I’ve had a couple disagreements with him, but in my opinion his is a good solid ref not afraid to make the tuff call.
Dennis Cook

Coach, congrats on a great season! That ref is very inconsistent he always is at staTES ALWAYS! And you would think that too if they called Garrett on stalling with 11 secs left in a semifinal. They both were stalling at the end. Neither did any takedown attempts it’s sad it ended the way it did but shouldn’t let the official dictate it. I’m just a fan. Stalling should’ve never been called with 11 secs or another double stall.

[wrestlingfan23202]

First of all Summers hasn't beaten Shamblin multiple times, the last time they wrestled was at Winners choice last season where he won in overtime over Shamblin, and i cant find record of them wresting in Shamblins freshman year. For you to imply "this time wouldn't have been different " shows your ignorance. Any kid can win given they work hard enough and had the match continued you may have been disappointed. Watching the match I would like to know what you think was "illegal" about that slam wrestling fan 23202 ? Was it because the ref called it that after Summers used all of his recovery time, or was it because a 440lb weight makes a lot of noise when it hits the mat? If you paid attention during the match had Shamblin not picked up Summers, then Summers was gonna pick up Shamblin, either way ending in a slam at the end, it was 0-0 they were both fighting for that first take down. I just think its ridiculous that the bigger kids are the ones being called for it while lighter weights get tossed all over and rarely get a call for it. We want bigger kids to move and not stall , be more offensive but don't lift, good luck with that.

That was as illegal as it gets. Completely over his head suplex And wrong again he called it as soon as he hit the mat that’s why the whistle was blown.... it was illegal. Can’t belive you’re even questioning that I challenge you to look up the definition of legal and illegal slams. I’m going to guess by your name you’re a little bias on the situation. Sham is a good wrestler he could’ve beat summers absolutely but he shouldn’t have illegally slammed people like to point fingers if someone lays there but moral of the story don’t illegally slam someone if you don’t want them too duh.