Please read .....

[MalcomFlex]

In the end, whether the "five second rule" is literally in the rule book doesnt really matter does it? Obviously it is subjective if someone is stalling. Its up to the official to decide. If a particular ref has decided to utilize a 'five second rule" on returning a wrestler to the mat...that is just a part of his subjectivity,...isnt it? At least he is making it known its one of the measures he is going by when it comes to stalling...so one can coach their wrestler accordingly. Just my two cents.

Yeah, except if you have never had the referee before, how are coaches and wrestlers supposed to be aware of this so called "rule?" Is this referee so "great" that they can just make up whatever rules that they want? Imagine if a NFL, MLB, NBA, NCAA, etc. just made up individual rules. They would be fined, suspended, etc. Being an official does not mean that you should be able to make up rules just to be different. It is not an official's job to interject themselves in a match to the point where it seems as if they are making it about them. The rule's interpreter, WVSSAC, or whoever else should really do something about this situation and other situations like this that occur. It's a shame that we are talking about how awful a referee is instead of the good wrestling match that was going on until that point. I just feel sad for the two individuals in that match.

Typically a ref doesn't call it if the wrestler makes some strong attempts to return the guy but is unable to do it right away. Its a judgment call on the part of the ref. And anyone who coaches high school wrestling in WV should be well aware that most refs are going to hit a guy for stalling if more than 5 seconds go by and their wrestler has not attempted to bring the opponent back to the mat. The 5 seconds being used isn't some rarity. Its not a ref or two trying to be different. It is what most refs in the state go by. It is the norm. So, don't give me the "how are coaches and wrestlers supposed to be aware of this so called 'rule'" stuff. Everyone is aware of it. Furthermore, I heard one of the coaches who are complaining about it on here on the board make a comment to Jeremy Callen before the tournament began about how the rule book doesn't say anything about "five seconds" but nearly all the refs are acting like that is an official rule. So, this certainly is not a situation where the coaches or wrestlers were unaware that most refs will hit them for stalling after 5 seconds.

If you do not want to be hit for stalling...be more aggressive.

No, not every referee goes by the made up "5 second rule." Still, the main issue here is actually a referee blatantly stating that they make up a rule that is not in a rule book. Why even have rules if an official can just do whatever they want? There in lies the bigger issue. Also, this said referee actually only made a 3 count as opposed to a 5 count, so the "5 second rule" that "every referee" implements should not even be relevant.

[tsb1967]

I'm not a referee. I'm not a coach.

I watched the AAA 285 match. I don't know either wrestler or coach. I couldn't tell you what schools they were from.

I thought the referee called a good consistent match. If I remember correctly (might not), He gave a double stall warning while neutral in the first period. He hit both wrestlers with stalling from top during standup/mat return situations.

It should have been obvious to anyone involved that the ref wanted more action and was going to call stalling.

[Dan Tucker]

If I implied in anyway anything about a "5 second rule" I apologize. I don't recall mentioning anything about a five second rule or that the ref said there was a five second rule. What he said was there is a 4 second rule in the rule book. If that were true, which it isn't, I can still see where the call would be subjective. However, this was not the situation. The top wrestler no longer had control and gave up an escape point. At which time the referee called him for stalling. I know you will continue to have your own opinions whether you saw the match or not but when several other referees who did watch the match agree that this particular official was wrong, then I tend to believe he was wrong.

[aacoach70]

I posted about the mat return stall call recently on a different thread. My experience has been that when a wrestler stands to his feet, the top man gets called for stalling way too quickly. In many cases, 5 seconds would be generous. I think officials are trying to be consistent and that is not what is needed in this particular case. Aggressively attempting to return an opponent is all that is required. The officials need to stop calling the top man so quickly because what I'm starting to see more and more is that the bottom wrestler, upon standing, is waiting to benefit from that stall call before he clears himself and finishes his escape. Whose stalling now? If top man is tripping, lifting, pulling, grunting, etc., use your judgement. If you think he's faking it, hit him, but if not, let it go a little while and see what happens. One could also look at it like this,.. Is it better to be trying to return an opponent or is it better to jump on top and lace a leg to draw a stalemate? In the first situation, we warn the kid for stalling, but in the second situation we call a stalemate or get a potentially dangerous stoppage. This tactic is usually allowed around three times before stalling is called, and if you spread it out and don't do it consecutive times, it might not get called at all. Isn't this stalling, and more calculated than the kid struggling at returning his opponent to the mat? I just think officials need to use their judgement here and not go by some arbitrary amount of time. Just one coach's opinion.

[Matofficial]

TSB1967, You are correct in stating that he gave a double stall call in the first period. As a coach for 45 years and a referee for 44 most refer to that type of a call as chicken poop. Heavy weights who take shots like a 195 pounder are rare and when they do they usually end up on the short end especially when one weighs more than the other. This whole thread is about a bad call (oops we lost a point for saying that ) was made. I don't care who you are or what your status is if you could see the video there is no argument. I am working on posting it. For the record both wrestlers were on the mat the bottom man stands up and the top wrestler works very hard to return him to the mat. After approximately 14 seconds he gets him back to the mat. The bottom man works tough and gets back to his feet after about five seconds or so. At that time the top guy has his hands around his waist and you can see the official begin counting. As a coach and official we are familiar what is coming next. Our heavy weight coach who is very good and an accomplished former D1 wrestler yells to cut him. The top guy breaks his grip and lets him go. You can see the official begin to count as soon as the bottom man got to his feet. He gives three arm swings indicating a count and then penalizes the top man for stalling. To increase the incompetence after the two wrestled for about twenty seconds they were blown out of bounds and the clock was left running. You can clearly see 51 seconds on the clock when the whistle blew. After table discussion it was determined that 38 seconds was on the clock, casting further doubt of the officials. If I remember correctly a tournament official said to me " five officials on the mat and they still couldn't get the score correct " I am sure at some point brilliant person will say enough is enough but in the meantime I will continue to vent !

[Matofficial]

tbs1967 Not sure what match you were watching but regarding your statement regarding consistent, there was a considerable amount of time difference in the time when awarding stalling thus inconsistence would be the word you were looking for.

[south supporter]

Matoffical - I hope you are able to post the video. I was at the finals and left thinking that was the worst officiated match I have ever witnessed. You know it is bad when you feel bad for the losing parties and even the winning parties. No kid wants to win like that. Double Stalling in the first period for Heavyweights when they are working collar ties should automatically be a horrible call.

[Frank Stein]

I do think stalling should be called on the top wrestler when both wrestlers are on their feet. My reasoning is you are allowed to lock hands when on your feet. You can restrict your opponents ability to breath with a bear hug basically suffocating him. Upon return to the mat the hands can't be locked. The top guy has a significant advantage when both are standing. If he can't return him he needs to cut him. I know this isn't exactly what is being discussed here, but I think stalling must be called if you dont return a guy. Otherwise top position can punish the bottom guy by restricting air flow. A wrestler probably isn't going to win if he's behind his opponent while both are on their feet and he can't return him anyway.

[grapple158]

The college rule is: top man has 5 seconds and if you haven't returned him to the mat, regardless of attempts, it is stalling.
The high school rule is: stalling is called if there is no attempt to wrestle, so it is more subjective. There is no "5-second count" rule.

[mscoach81]

I'm not gonna take anything away from a student athlete who makes the state finals... It's a great accomplishment for anyone and most certainly for a freshman at 285 lbs. but as a spectator it was clear to most everyone in the building who knows wrestling that the 285 match had a clear Alpha wrestler and a Beta Wrestler.
Neither wrestler took a level change or shot and advisably so. But it was quick to see one wrestler attempting and creating and one avoiding and trying to pacify.
It would be tough to blame a ref for trying to create activity and trying to get the wrestlers to engage.
If there was any obvious calls incorrect it could have best been the double call in the beginning which was probably best just the Beta wrestler trying to back out and get away from a locked position.
They both were called for same position and same stall call and they both had a double stall at same moment.
The Beta wrestler was defensive for first 5:22 of match.
The Alpha Wrestler was defensive for the last :38.
Point is the call was called equal.... Correct or not, adaptation of the implied understanding from college wrestling or not,
And intent correct or not.... It was called on both and was equal.
Take both of those 2 calls away and it's still a 1 point victory.

If you still aren't sure take the grandmother test.
Watch the video with the volume off, with a 75 yo woman with no understanding of wrestling and when it's over ask her who she thinks won...
They always pick the Alpha Athlete because they only understand that it's a Gladiator sport... True stalling test!
Congrats to both Athletes.

[mscoach81]

I'm not gonna take anything away from a student athlete who makes the state finals... It's a great accomplishment for anyone and most certainly for a freshman at 285 lbs. but as a spectator it was clear to most everyone in the building who knows wrestling that the 285 match had a clear Alpha wrestler and a Beta Wrestler.
Neither wrestler took a level change or shot and advisably so. But it was quick to see one wrestler attempting and creating and one avoiding and trying to pacify.
It would be tough to blame a ref for trying to create activity and trying to get the wrestlers to engage.
If there was any obvious calls incorrect it could have best been the double call in the beginning which was probably best just the Beta wrestler trying to back out and get away from a locked position.
They both were called for same position and same stall call and they both had a double stall at same moment.
The Beta wrestler was defensive for first 5:22 of match.
The Alpha Wrestler was defensive for the last :38.
Point is the call was called equal.... Correct or not, adaptation of the implied understanding from college wrestling or not,
And intent correct or not.... It was called on both and was equal.
Take both of those 2 calls away and it's still a 1 point victory.

If you still aren't sure take the grandmother test.
Watch the video with the volume off, with a 75 yo woman with no understanding of wrestling and when it's over ask her who she thinks won...
They always pick the Alpha Athlete because they only understand that it's a Gladiator sport... True stalling test!
Congrats to both Athletes.

[forthekids]

WOW, is such a understatement for this thread. REALLY

[Matofficial]

Brilliant MScoach81 ! Its always someone like yourself that has no clue !

[Panther_coach]

This thread is getting long and does not reflect the title anymore. I am gonna lock this one. If you want to discuss it further, start a new thread with an appropriate title. Thanks.