Forfeits

[coach_stump]

The number of forfeits keep mounting for whatever reason both in AAA and AA-A. Always a debate on why, with many reasons and opinions. In several cases the team that has the most members win in duals, but are not the best teams to place in the state tournaments. Will give my opinion, WV needs to go back to 12 weight classes then things would even out for the better. Others shared their opinion to me, if you keep 14 weight classes, drop the amount of points awarded for forfeits, why reward it like a pin. Good thinking, but I prefer the 12 weight classes.

[aacoach62]

Agree with Coach Stump

The number of forfeits keep mounting for whatever reason both in AAA and AA-A. Always a debate on why, with many reasons and opinions. In several cases the team that has the most members win in duals, but are not the best teams to place in the state tournaments. Will give my opinion, WV needs to go back to 12 weight classes then things would even out for the better. Others shared their opinion to me, if you keep 14 weight classes, drop the amount of points awarded for forfeits, why reward it like a pin. Good thinking, but I prefer the 12 weight classes.

[aacoach45]

I agree with coach stump also, the weight classes would help at 12. I also agree that all the forfeits hurt the small schools that can't fill all the weight classes. This brings up a question in my mind, is it really fair for a forfeit to receive the same amount of points as a pin? I don't think it is fair to the wrestler that wrestled hard for a pin to receive the same amount as a forfeit. Are the "better" teams really getting to advance? We are looking to always improve wrestling in wv but are we really doing that with the current way of awarding equal amounts of points for both pins and forfeits ?

[guard0544]

Having forfeits be worth less than Falls would lead to more forfeits. In close duals or dual tournaments there would be incentive to give the other team a forfeit rather than send out your inexperienced wrestler if you know the other teams wrestler is likely going to get a fall.

I like the idea of reducing the number of weight classes. The biggest problem is at the two lowest weights.
Id like to see something like: 110, 118, 125, 132, 138, 145, 152, 160, 170, 182, 195, 220, 285 if reducing one weight class....or 110, 118, 126, 134, 142, 150, 160, 170, 182, 195, 220, 285 if reducing two weight classes.

[Armyman]

I like the proposal of 12 weight classes. Use the 10 college weight classes and add two lower weights.....108 and 117.

[Bearhugger]

With all due respect, cutting out weight classes does not solve anything. Using that logic, taking basketball down to 4 players on the floor is a good idea. Changing the starter's in football from 11 to 8 would help the smaller schools too.

Fewer weight classes could contribute to more weight cutting and more wrestlers on the bench. Both are issues that hurt the sport.

A great coach will take his 5 to 7 wrestlers, make them better than they are and then go kick the butts in 5 to 7 weight classes.

6 points for a forfeit is a problem.

[aaacoach11]

Agree with Coach Stump!

105
115
125
135
145
155
165
175
190
205
225
285

[Panther_coach]

I am saddened by the number of forfeits but lowering the number of weight classes is not the answer. The greatest thing about our sport is that it gives an athlete who is too small for football or basketball / too heavy perhaps for basketball or track, etc. a chance to be part of a team and have success through hard work. What we need is to promote the sport. That is part of our job as coaches and fans of the sport. Walk the halls of the school and recruit kids to try the sport. Another key is to have a full schedule for your JV team - no one wants to practice and not get to wrestle! That is like sitting the bench in other sports. Once they get their hand raised a few times they are hooked! Make sure the newspapers print results, demand "pep assemblies" for the wrestling team (just like basketball), promote your matches with posters, announcements, etc., work with the cheerleaders and band to be at your matches, do things for the wrestlers that other sports do not in terms of recognition, try to get your matches on local media, etc. There are a million ways to do this limited only by your imagination and your willingness to work at it. We, as coaches also have to limit cutting weight, it is a miserable way to feel and no one wants to do it for a long period of time. Wrestle your kids at close to their body weight, it will pay off in bigger numbers and fewer forfeits. I am NOT tooting my own horn but anyone who wrestled our Milton Middle teams will tell you we always fielded two complete teams and had extra kids as well. We actually had to cut kids at tryouts due to only having one mat and always 50 + kids show up. This is a school around 600 kids (1/2 are female and rarely come out) so really 300 - that is one out of every six kids out for wrestling. I remember one year Coach Darst at Point Pleasant has nearly 100 kids who wanted to wrestle at PPMS. I can only speak from the middle school perspective but I know that just about any athlete we wanted from the school they wanted to be a wrestler. They love the sport when they start middle school but after years of getting no recognition and being ignored, they leave for other sports or pursuits. We are still the greatest and most pure of all sports, we just have to get the message out there! Just .02 from the Old Coach, I know things are different today and I have been out of the sport for 6 years but I still say "If you build it, they will come!"

[ZZChooseTop]

1. I have a lot of respect for Coach Stump but respectfully disagree with him. In addition to the comments made, changing our weight classes and not following NHSCA would result in our wrestlers having a very difficult time wrestling anyone out of state.
2. I agree with Jim and I have never known him to toot his own horn

[aacoach62]

I don't think you can compare middle school wrestling teams and high school wrestling teams. Middle schools kids are not told by football coaches to make a commitment to the football team and weight room. Football teams need as many kids as possible to practice against. It happens all the time and now with the 7 on 7 summer tournaments kids who should do other sports are chasing an NFL career 12 months a year. Kids 100lbs or 300lbs all think they are football players and are told they are from the age of 7 or 8. LOL

[DLife]

With much respect I disagree on post topic.

Everyone has your top 3-6 guys.
Part of the coaches job is to promote the sport and fill your team. This in my opinion is the hard part of the job. But is very rewarding when your able to get them first year wrestlers competing.

Don't kill a great sport by lowering the numbers and punishing a team or coach who is promoting a great sport.

We need to promote more!!! Build the love of this great sport. Even if that first year wrestler doesn't succeed on the mat, he will succeed in life by what he was able to learn in Wrestling. And he may become a coach himself or have siblings that become wrestlers.

Promote the sport

[Panther_coach]

I fully realize that one can not equate middle school to high school - a whole ' nother set of distractions - cars, jobs, girlfriends,etc. and you are 100 percent dead on about the football coaches. I have seen many kids who could realistically gotten help with college as a wrestler fall victim to the "You can play in The League someday!" spiel and never see a field again after their senior year. That being said, I still think we as s wrestling community fall way short of promoting the sport as it should be done.

[Frank]

I don't think you can compare middle school wrestling teams and high school wrestling teams. Middle schools kids are not told by football coaches to make a commitment to the football team and weight room. Football teams need as many kids as possible to practice against. It happens all the time and now with the 7 on 7 summer tournaments kids who should do other sports are chasing an NFL career 12 months a year. Kids 100lbs or 300lbs all think they are football players and are told they are from the age of 7 or 8. LOL

I coached wrestling in middle school for three years. And those kids are told they need to be in the weight room to prepare for the following season or high school football. Not all football coaches. At the school I coached at our head football coach supported wrestling, he like their tackling but some of his assistants pushed for the weight room.

[Frank]

I believe the answer is to promote the sport better

[Bearhugger]

Wrestlers should lift weights! Weight training prevents injuries. Weight training improves endurance.

Being strong and in shape helps everybody in life. Life is tougher than wrestling. There are no advantages to being weak (other than getting out of helping people with heavy work).

Kids should stay in decent to good shape year round. If a kid is losing 10 to 15 pounds for wrestling, then he got too fat in the off season. I do not see how fat can help a kid in football. I would prefer speed, strength and technique over fat.

The last period of the school day should be weight training for athletes. Lift during this period before wrestling practice. The wrestlers will wrestle better and not miss a beat for football season.

[FarmerandPin]

How about more weight classes to help promote our sport to students. With more weight classes we will intice more kids to join and therefore have a larger wrestling base in our state. With more kids in this sport the better they will become and further they could go.

[wvgymrott]

Why not let 8th graders that are ready wrestle with the high school. I believe KY does this and have had success.

[Frank]

Wrestlers should lift weights! Weight training prevents injuries. Weight training improves endurance.

Being strong and in shape helps everybody in life. Life is tougher than wrestling. There are no advantages to being weak (other than getting out of helping people with heavy work).

Kids should stay in decent to good shape year round. If a kid is losing 10 to 15 pounds for wrestling, then he got too fat in the off season. I do not see how fat can help a kid in football. I would prefer speed, strength and technique over fat.

The last period of the school day should be weight training for athletes. Lift during this period before wrestling practice. The wrestlers will wrestle better and not miss a beat for football season.

I agree completly

[aacoach62]

Any school where the FB coaches actually promote wrestling more than with just lip service are VERY LUCKY. FB coaches at most schools don't see wrestling as a benefit for football players. They want them in the weight room from 3 to 4:30 daily or doing football conditioning. They want fb players lifting and gaining weight in the off season. It doesn't matter to them if it is all fat as long as they gain weight

[Bearhugger]

These football coaches actually think they are going to gain any kind of advantage over another WV football team by lifting weights? Everybody is lifting weights.

Wrestlers need to lift weights. Basketball players need to lift weights.

The more different sports one plays, thus staying in a competitive mindset year round mixed with regular weight training.............will help a young kid more than focusing solely on lifting weights and playing football.

It doesn't seem to be paying off to well anyway. How many WV kids are going off to play football somewhere. The last one I heard of was David Smith from GW. Oh yeah, 2 x state champion.

[mscoach62]

I agree with coach stump too, maybe the weight classes are a little watered down and 12 would help. I also feel 6pts for a forfeit is way too much,

[J.W.]

Less weight classes means less kids wrestling. May make for a competitive dual but reducing number of competing wrestlers even more would be detrimental. Furthermore we fall under NFHS rules for weight classes. We are one state out of 50, not reducing weight classes for one state that needs to get more kids wrestling.

[mscoach64]

I coach high school football. I definitely encourage my football players to wrestle. Helps with conditioning, toughness, etc. I want them to play any sport.

[CCHS#2]

Im at a loss on how everyone under this forum feels that going from 14 weight classes to 12 would be so detrimental to this sport in this state. I would like to be shown anywhere where having 12 has been bad for this sport in fact lets look at other levels of this sport collegiate wrestling for men there are 10 weight classes for women there are 8, Olympic weight classes there are 6 weight classes for each style. Just my two sense.

[Frank Stein]

No way should the number of weight classes be reduced. No way should WV adopt a different weight system than other states. I know it is easier for larger schools to fill weight classes than smaller schools, but it's the same in every sport, just not as obvious. There are some teams with not all weights filled but the ones they have are great wrestlers. I'm suspecting the original poster is associated with such a team. It's hard to be in a dual and win most of the actual matches wrestled and still lose due to forfeits. Teams in this situation will do fine in individual tournaments (like states). Maybe avoid dual events.

[jofus]

I don't see the benefit of having different weight classes than the national standard (and thus every other state). How would any team goo out of state to wrestle? Or, how would a tournament like the guard duals or wsaz get teams from out of state?
Duals are fun to watch, but I just look at them as prep for when the bracketed tournaments start.

[aacoach91]

Why reduce the amount of weight classes??? I think they are good where they are at right now. Instead of receiving 6 points for a forfeit lets try making it 2 or 3 points instead. I think that is more logical.

[CommonSense]

As stated above forfeits have to be the same as a fall or coaches will sit kids from matches to avoid giving up the 6. We would see more forfeits if the point value was lowered.

[IndyHart]

I think the lack of emphasis that we place on dual meets in West Virginia is a big contributor to the number of forfeits you see. If you had a dual meet state tournament, I think you would see a lot more teams work a lot harder to fill all of the weights. Dual meets between full or nearly-full teams, especially in a survive-and-advance format are really exciting. They also make all fourteen guys on team important. We are one of the few states in our area that doesn't have a dual meet state tournament. We could do it the week of traditional conference tournaments and have a qualification process in early January during the week among local teams that is similar to basketball sectional tournaments. Our conference tournaments are normally filled with kids who wrestle each other five times during a season anyway. The "duals don't matter" attitude minimizes the importance of the guys on the team who might not qualify for or aren't going to go deep into a traditional state tournament. If the presence of those guys had more importance, coaches would have an incentive to work harder to get (and keep) those guys out and develop them into better wrestlers.

As to reducing the point value of a forfeit, I think doing so would actually lead to more forfeits, rather than less. If Independence is wrestling Cabell Midland in a dual and Indy knows Chaston Holley is probably going to pin its 182 pounder, why would Indy send their 182 out there two wrestle the match? If a forfeit is only worth 4 points, Indy would save two points by holding their 182 out of the match. Midland shouldn't be penalized points because Independence didn't give it the opportunity to score the bonus points associated with pining at that weight. As scoring is done now, teams have an incentive to send out all their guys because if Indy's 182 can keep from getting pinned (and maybe only give up a tech fall or major decision), then he saved his team points.

[aacoach91]

That is true IndyHart never really thought of that surprisingly!!! Yeah so we have to keep the point value the same to avoid that.